Pro Stock HP

[Chuck Wilburn]

Seeing Geno has run almost Pro-Mod numbers, I wonder how muchHP he had to be putting to the rear tire Any guestimates George

[Danno]

According to the horsepower calculator on the prostar page, at 602 lbs. it would take 346 horse to go 7.005


Hmmmmmsmileys/smiley22.gif

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Chuck, I believe this was a Prostar rules motor. I am kind of amazed that we did not have a 'six' this year. Still leaves me a longshot chance for next year.

[J/G Bryce]

Hi gang, Angelle and I ran 7.04 at Etown in 2002...it was our best front half, 4.48 and our best back half too, 2.56. We only had 306 on the engine dyno. BUT, the air that day was 200 below when she ran the 04! That run is still the NHRA record. Fred ran a 7.05...same track, same bike, same team, same lane,same day.....one year later. We ran 4.49, front, 2.56 back. We had almost 309, at home on the engine dyno. The air was great at Etown this year too, but it was trying to rain the whole time. I did not dyno the bike on our dynojet dyno same day...but when I do it is close to 280 rwhp. We make right at 310 now....on the engine dyno...this iswith 1500cc with 2 valves. Our 1640, that we used to win the Prostar championship in 2000 had about 320...engine dyno. It should have gone in the sixes....but no air, no track, like we had in Etown. Geno ran 7.00 in2000 ft air!!! If he could run that same run where we ran our 7.04 and our 7.05....same time....same air, it could have been a 6.89!!!!!!!! If he goofed up alittle, it still would have been a 6.95!!! When Geno ran the 7.00, Fred and I were going lots of 7.15s...with our 310 hp 2v 1500. We were running only 2.59 back halfs....Geno was going 2.51....2.52. You guys this takes, 20 to 25 more hp .....so I think his 1640 4 valve would make 335 to 340 on our engine dyno!!!!! Man thats the most I ever typed! GB3

[Chuck Wilburn]

Very interesting George, I didn't expect you to give the exact numbers from your own bikes-I figured that was all top secret!smileys/smiley3.gif Do you think it will ever be possible for a 'Busa engine to make that kind of power in PS trimEdited by: Chuck Wilburn

[J/G Bryce]

Chuck, is it possible Yes.......but......I don't think so. The bore centers are too close. The head gasket won't seal well if we put the biggest bore in that will fit. If you had an unlimited budget and same with time....you would have to run the biggest valves that would fit the bore....with a shorter stroke...we have to stay with a short stroke.....we must rev it higher than our 2v to out run our 2v.....we turn 14000 now, if you rev it higher...you have to run a shorter inlet port.....you will find the weak links as you run near 14000 rpm.....and we are going to rev the 2v higher and pick up more power while you are working on this little 4v. Make since Never say never though......some one will prove you wrong. GB3

[camchain]

Good information.


How does efi factor into this Is runner length as crucial since the the fuel does not have to be pulled into the cylinders


How would scooting the outer cylinders out affect this (head gasket seal)





Cc

[Chuck Wilburn]

Also, are the plain bearings not a concernor is that one of the weak linksyou may find

[camchain]

I honestly don't think the bearings are a concern.





Cc

[Chuck Wilburn]

You mean that big ole funybike of yours hasn't gotten one yet!!smileys/smiley3.gif





P.S.- I like your signature CCsmileys/smiley2.gifEdited by: Chuck Wilburn

[J/G Bryce]

You could do the offset cylinder deal....but a new crank with rod journals moved over would have to be made...then chambers would have to move....your valves would be to one side also. Length counts, ram tuning, even with efi. Never say never...GB3

[camchain]

Nope! And believe me...it ain't fer lack of trying. In it's 12 passes, I have (unintentionally) tried evey trick in the book to take out a bearing.


We had all the right stuff from the start. Oil pump gear, Koenig pan, andgood clearances. KNOCK ON WOOD!


Plain bearing motors just flat out REQUIRE a tear down and checkfor peace of mind.


I'm surenot saying we won't kill one but things are going well thus far. KNOCK ON WOOD!





Cc

[camchain]

I think the weakest link in the whole program would be the valve location in 1 and 4.


Billet 4v Busa head anyone





Cc

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Well, that just about covers most of the problems Muzzy is facing; except that the Twelve has even narrower bore centers.
You also have to keep in mind that just about the only thing off the shelf even he could pickup is the ignition. I have been somewhat surprised by what some of these head gaskets will take. Still don't know how well the rings are sealing. But low thirties and consistant 180 MPH plus is excellent for their first year.

[J/G Bryce]

How much power is out there right now How much have you heard about...n/a..1430cc 280 270 On a busa, NHRA rules. I have heard around 250 to 260.....GB3

[DaveDole]

GB3,I've heard less than that:)I've heard of figures around 220 for N A's 1400's but they seem to have a tad more torque though.I think they could make more power with smaller bores on those with the current set up's.I think(and it's a guess:) that with the current valves sizes that can be put in em, it's gonna be hard to get the big motors to make more power on the big end of the scale.Correct me if I'm off base cause I'm a still a learnin.Dave

[DaveDole]

BTW,I meant to say that I am glad to see you post and enjoy reading your posts!Tell Mrs Bryce,Doug F and the crew I'll be glad to see em next season at the SEMDRA events and cant hardly wait!Dave

[camchain]

What is the min weight for the Busa and ZX 12





Cc

[Halvefast]

Great stuff guys, what an education!


This is the info I've been dying to see. Now it makes sense why modern liquids are having trouble competeing in big bore classes N/A, but fly with turbos or spray. All I ever heard is you can get almost 500hp out of it and lower end hold up.


Keep it going, more, more!smileys/smiley4.gifEdited by: Halvefast

[steve johnson]

if you use a late model engine 94 (busa and zx 12)and newer you can weigh 575 but can only be 1429cc. sj

[Chuck Wilburn]

Check it out guys- a real live NHRA celebrity!!! Where have you been Steve- did you just getyour first computer todaysmileys/smiley2.gif


Just joking around- good to see you on the forums!

[steve johnson]

I am so burried with everyday racin stuff I never had a chance to even look at these forums. I have been running with some big dogs owners and drivers in Nascar and then though I needed to build a faculity to run our operation out of. wow, was I wrong. Its a ton of work. Should have done what geno scali did, get a rig and a partner with deep pockets. of coase I would have needed a tuner too. Not sure how many power commanders I need to do to pay for the dyno and rent.


I would like to add to more facts of oursport via this forum in hopes to grow our class. NHRA is so awesome right now. sj

[J/G Bryce]

I am on the same page man! I have been workin this forum hard...we get lots of readership here. Too bad it is WAY DOWN at the bottom wherelots of folkscan notsee it.


Even at the bottom we get the most veiws. GB3

[Garry Sprake]

<LABEL id=HbSessi&#111;n Sessi&#111;nId="2529031240">Did you get that extra 10 horsepower for Christmas GB3... smileys/smiley16.gif</LABEL>

[Greig Frankham]

If you were going to make a billet head for the Busa...would you go to 2 valve


Like, say GB3 wanted to make one, why not just probe what he has now, and make that fit the Busa external shape of the cylinder head


Then again, the engine may not allow a big enough piston.


A couple of years ago a mate fitted 38mm intakes and 34mm exhaust into an 89mm bore on a GS...The head wasn't finished....An hours rough porting and it flowed close to 160@10"....... great low lift as well.


He still might fit it to his 1800 engine for a bit of fun and see how it goes...


Anyway...just random thoughts...sorry...LOL


Greig

[Wade Clark]

I guess we are talking canted valves in a 1150 head to fit 38/34,ssmileys/smiley5.gifI run 33,s on the intake and had to offset the guides! Canted is the only wayI see enough room for 38,s! I know why he went to 89mm with those massive valves! Anything smaller and the valves would be on top of the sleeves. ManI would love to see some pics of that head, what you think Greig you got any pics or is it top secretsmileys/smiley2.gif Edited by: Wade Clark

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Greig, the two valve, second iteration, heads we now have are far from a blank sheet ideal. They evolved from the extensive, expensive crucible of NHRA Pro Stock. Ironically, just how expensive, never seems to be proved as nothing else seems to be effective but a gradual evolution. This is also true in the cars. Of course the rules have quite a bit to do with it. Just trying to break out of the compression versus cam evolution seems impossible.

[Greig Frankham]

Wade...I have a pic here somewhere...I'll try and find it...I also have one where he sat a V6 powerhead from a boat in a GS chassis as well....damn it fits good...LOL...I'll see if I can find them and I'll probably have to send them to you as I think they are too big to post.


Greig

[Greig Frankham]

yes it's canted. I forgot to mention that. the head is also offset a bit. the best thing about the valves being canted is that the more they open the closer to the centre of the bore they go obviously. Being canted they also travel towards the outside of the bore. Because the bore is getting bigger the more they lift there is no shrouding concerns there. And because they are travelling away from each other the further they open, the more deshrouding from valve to valve as well. It's a win win situation. Oh...except for the poor sucker that would have to machine the guide holes in the right spot...LOL


The head currently has the guides glued in as a test deal to see if it would all fit and what it would flow. I actually have it draw up as a 3d model with the guide centrelines etc on my computer. We did this when he was first talking of doing it. Trying to see what angles it was being changed by. It was a couple of years ago but I still have it.


Greig

[Wade Clark]

Greig, you have me drooling on my self now! smileys/smiley17.gif

[Garry Sprake]

<LABEL id=HbSessi&#111;n Sessi&#111;nId="3363258480">HiGreig, send me the piccy's and I'll reduce and post them for you, but no PowerPoint (,pps) files please.</LABEL>


<LABEL Sessi&#111;nId="3363258480">Happy new year mate....smileys/smiley4.gifsmileys/smiley16.gif</LABEL>

[Greig Frankham]

Thanks Garry..

[Greig Frankham]

The culinder head looks a bit ugly as it is just a dummy up to see if it could be done. You'll also note that the exhaust valves are layed away from the spark plug. So are the intakes to fit the valves in...But the exhaust were layed back to stop cracking. I can't remember if he was going to welf up the plug holes and then move them closer to the exhausts.


You'll see that the intakes have heaps of clearance valve to valve.....And it gets better as they open...


Garry's going to post them for me...


Greig

[Garry Sprake]

<DIV id=0>



.....Garry's going to post them for me......


Come on Greig, get a move on, I want to see them as well.....smileys/smiley4.gif

[Greig Frankham]

hey mate...I sent them before I posted...Maybe the camels haven't brought the latest Emails in

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Greig, what the heck do you plan to do about: rocker, follower, bucket misalignment Of course for six seconds I guess you can let them scrub. All the pushrod engines just let the pushrod take care of that.

[Garry Sprake]

<DIV id=0>



hey mate...I sent them before I posted...Maybe the camels haven't brought the latest Emails in


You're not wrong they're slow mate, as I imagine they will get here sooner or later. Did you get my e-mail..!


Roland, I think Greighas been going to Alchemy classes and has probably made a brew to stop wear and tear...smileys/smiley16.gif

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Gary, maybe Greig has that seven axis, trapozoidal, cam grinding, program ready.

[Greig Frankham]

Have you been spying in our shop Roland.....


Greig

[Greig Frankham]

Garry, I sent it to the address on your profile


gwsprake@hotmail.com


Greig

[Garry Sprake]

<LABEL id=HbSessi&#111;n Sessi&#111;nId="24791279">Hotmail &amp; Yahoo have been super slow today Greig, I'll keep pinging 'em, as I still haven't got anything..but try the return address from my Oman e-mail I gave to you. New years queing backloadsin the ISP's by the sounds of it mate.</LABEL>

[Greig Frankham]

I haven't recieved an Email yet Garry...did you send it to sales@mperacingonline.com

[Garry Sprake]

<DIV id=0>


Ah ha, that's the problem. I'm using your primus e-mail..is that dead now..!


Greig, sorting it out myaddress booknow and getting one off to you, as we speak....wait out..!!! smileys/smiley1.gif

[Greig Frankham]

No worries mate. I've returned it to you....


Wade...I was wrong by the way...the valves were 38 inlet with 30 exhaust





Sorry about that...


Greig

[Garry Sprake]

<LABEL id=HbSessi&#111;n Sessi&#111;nId="433458508" Sessi&#111;nId="2631740838">Corrected bad posting of pictures..sorry smileys/smiley5.gif</LABEL>


<LABEL Sessi&#111;nId="433458508" Sessi&#111;nId="2631740838">uploads/GarrySprake/top_view2bb.JPG</LABEL>


<LABEL Sessi&#111;nId="3718679238">uploads/GarrySprake/top_view2aa.JPG</LABEL>


<LABEL Sessi&#111;nId="3718679238">uploads/GarrySprake/top_viewaa.JPG</LABEL>Edited by: Garry Sprake

[Garry Sprake]

<DIV id=0>


Correcting this lot as well....smileys/smiley5.gif



http://www.dragbike.com/forum/uploads/GarrySprake/v6.JPG


http://www.dragbike.com/forum/uploads/GarrySprake/valve_work.JPG


http://www.dragbike.com/forum/uploads/GarrySprake/porting.JPGEdited by: Garry Sprake

[Garry Sprake]

<LABEL id=HbSessi&#111;n Sessi&#111;nId="942824346">What are you going to do for compression Greig; lowering deck height, mill the head, put a blower on it. (the 4 cylinder that is) and to keep Dick happy..or maybe NITRO..!!! smileys/smiley2.gif</LABEL>

[Greig Frankham]

Compression will be fine. This was done to suit the 1800cc engine originally.


This is one Joe did. Remember it has 89mm pistons and Falicon 72.5mm stroke crank in the original block. No big blocks allowed in A/street.....It would fall apart if the compression was too high.


This head was a dummy test too see how it all fitted too. Plenty of things to change.

[Rob Muzzy]

In regards to the original question. There is a lot more to it than horsepower, trust me on this. We have only improved HP by 10 from Houston to Pomona, but we have improved ET by 4 tenths. Ourrear wheel numbers are very close to what George is saying and we are still 2 tenths off. I think that the Hayabusa is capable of the same power as the 12. I must mention that nothing aboutour engine is conventional thinking. None of that worked.I predict someone will have a competitive Prostar water cooled Pro Stock Bike in 04, maybe even in NHRA. Carburetors are biggest problem.

[Chuck Wilburn]

What about FI, Rob Does NHRA allow it Would it be an advantage to your bike What problems are you having with the carbs

[Wade Clark]

Chuck only the HD's are allowed FI!smileys/smiley5.gif

[Chuck Wilburn]

And HUGE motors, and no weight, etc......

[jackinzoar]

talking HP ,, what are the best figures you expect as far as crank HP vs rear wheel I know HP loss is a "given" but what happens in the real world of 5 and 6 speed

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Rob, at this point I don't expect you to tell us what you are doing to the carbs, but what did you start with
..
... Jack, the six speed has a little more complexity, bearing drag, rotational weight, but makes all this up by pulling the engine down less on a gear change (close ratio) and has less tendency to break the tire loose on a gear change, and sometimes enables to use / build a higher power band.

[Danno]

6 speed on a pro mod, hmmmmsmileys/fun_84.gif

[Wade Clark]

Would, could a six speed survive under P/M conditions

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Pro Mods responded well to five speeds but it is my opinion that the extra expense, drag, complexity, breakage, will show nothing and or not be worth changing to six speeds. From a data standpoint Pro Mods will show less time at or near any nominal (or ideal) RPM than a Pro Stock because of the extra 250 ponnies.

[jackinzoar]

guess I worded my question badly ,,, what is concidered acceptable HP loss between the crank and rear wheel

[Danno]

I have been told that it would not survive, but then again I have been told that I am to big to run Pro Mod. smileys/smiley4.gifMaybe I should listen more often.


NOT!

... Pro Mods responded well to five speeds but it is my opinion that the extra expense, drag, complexity, breakage, will show nothing and or not be worth changing to six speeds. From a data standpoint Pro Mods will show less time at or near any nominal (or ideal) RPM than a Pro Stock because of the extra 250 ponnies.


after taking bryes' prostock bike class i wass a little confused about the auto tranny thinghttp://www.dragbike.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif


dose the auto six speed shift for you or is it something eles thats auto


thanks for your time

[Danno]

You still have to shift the bike. By saying "auto" it means that there is no kill time inbetween shifts. Hope this helps.

that helps quite abit actually


by kill time you mean ignition kill to engage the next gear

[Danno]

Yes.

cool


smileys/smiley20.gifthanks

[Chuck Wilburn]

I know of a 6-speed PM that will be tested today- Rob Bush will be testing his Koenig PM'Busa- he says he's going to run a 6 at 600lbs bike and rider and a 10inch tire. He's supposed to call and let me know how he does- I'll post the results....

[Rob Muzzy]

Roland- There are no carbs bigger than 41mm that are designed to run at more than a 32 degree angle from horizontal. The ZX-12 intake port is 73 degrees from horizontal. That makes for a heck of a bend in the inlet track. Paul Gast tells me that he has a new 48mm lectron that will run at our angle. We expect to test soon.

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Rob, so I guess you were running a half to one MM over Kehins. Amazing that you were as fast as you were.

[Chuck Wilburn]

I haven't heard from R Bush- guess he didn't get his 6....

whats the spec on the pm bike he's testing

[Chuck Wilburn]

Busa engine in a Koenig 10 inch tire chassis. Fuel injected with NOS, 6-speed auto, I think somewhere around 1420 or so cc's. He's been some easy 7.50's with problems so if he gets it all ironed out he's expecting some high 6's.

[Chuck Wilburn]

No 6's today but an improved 7.23-


60ft 1.136


330 2.983


1/8 4.560@150.12mph


1000 5.983


1/4 7.231@177.83mph

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Chuck, who makes the Busa six speed auto. The stock ratios are way to wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide.

[Danno]

Really seems to fall off after the 330'

[Chuck Wilburn]

I'm not sure who built Robs but R&amp;D can auto the factory tranny 1-6 and Robinson Industries has billet 6-speeds. You think the stock ratios are too wideeven for a PM or just a PS


I hear you Danno- I remember when Ryan made his now infamous pass on the 12- I believe he was 2.98 to the 330 as well. Maybe Rob just needs less gearing and more bottle!

[Rob Muzzy]

Here are the numbers from the" Ryan's Infamous Run":


60' 1.111


330' 2.894


660' 4.384/ 168.56 mph


1000' 5.706


1/4 6.834/ 196.53 mph


1224cc 25# boost


This bike will probably never run in USA again. Headed to UK

[camchain]

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NOOOOOO!!! Say it ain't so!!





Cc</TD></TR>
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[Chuck Wilburn]

Sorry Rob- didn't mean to slow you down .09 to the 330. smileys/smiley2.gif Someone in the UK buy the bike

[camchain]

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Time to build a FB





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[Chuck Wilburn]

Here's a video of Rob on a 7.36 pass http://www.fishscustoms.com/trackticket.htm


Video is at the bottom of the time slip.


Sounds geared pretty low, it's in 6th for a loooong time.Edited by: Chuck Wilburn

[Danno]

Hmmmm.....smileys/smiley24.gif

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Rob, when the Twelve first showed up I was planning on taking this old chassis I have and turnning it into a dyno mule. I would have mounted the engine about 70 degrees back. This would have enabled me to use the FBG Tron's in some tests so that I could see that whatever I used on the race bike was in the ballpark with the rest of the class. Of course this might require some oil pan mods or a dry sump.

[Roland Tamaccio]

... Chuck W., I am sure the stock ratios are too wide for both Pro Mod & Stock; although you might be hard pressed to find something better for a Pro Mod pulling only five gears.

[Roland Tamaccio]

... I tried to coin a phrae and we can have it be just our own Drabike Dotcom term. "horsepower per hundred CC's". It seems we have everything from quasi stock 600's to 1600 hundred pluss CC Prostar Pro Stock engines making about twenty to twentyone horsepower per hundred CC's.
..
... George explained, at once, why the old NHRA four valve 1296 combo is not competitive and surprised me that this engine can make 20 HP per hundred CC beyond sixteen hundred CC's. The old NHRA standard, forty down, to today's, aftermarket headed, two valvers, that make 21 HP per hundred CC's.
..
... At the other end of the spectrum we have steel valve and steel roded quasi stock six hundreds and *mildly* modified thousand CC bikes making right at this magic 20 to 21 number. So what's wrong with the NHRA 1425 late model number
..
... My opinion is: nothing. Now it's no secret that the smaller the engine the easier to make HP per cube or as the European / sporty car set would say HP per liter. In NHRA size it becomes more difficult. Steel valves and rods are not going to do it. The problem deepens as it appears valve size, location and bore spacing all become entangled.
..
... I believe it would be quite different if say, George, Byron, Pete Briggs, Rob Muzzy and the Gann's were running these. Now there is only so much information you can share, because it is impossible to race your own self, but if the cam grinders, crank builders, piston, rod, and carb manufacturers were supplying these guys it would be a different story.
..
... BTW, Rob you have to make twentythree horsepower per hundred CC's. It will happen.