Where did evil come from?

[sporty91]

Does evil exist

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist"

"What kind of question is this Of course it exists. Have you never been cold" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero <NOBR>(-460 degrees F)</NOBR> is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name — Albert Einstein.



Lets keep class in this debate, No name calling! Your viewwill not be put down, however any info showing anotherveiw is welcome.Let the debate begin!
__________________
IT ONLY TAKES ONE HARLEY!

[Red,]

At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.BlueLetterBible.oRg) ( Isaiah 45:7 reads )


I form the light, and create darkness:


I make peace, and create evil:


I the LORD do all these things.


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.

Team WandL Racing.

PMR components.

Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[S2LR]

Does evil exist

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist"

"What kind of question is this Of course it exists. Have you never been cold" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero <nobr>(-460 degrees F)</nobr> is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name — Albert Einstein.



Lets keep class in this debate, No name calling! Your viewwill not be put down, however any info showing anotherveiw is welcome.Let the debate begin!
__________________
IT ONLY TAKES ONE HARLEY!



I think the real debate is whether or not your comments
belong in this forum or in one dealing with philosophy. That being said, I’ll
throw in my .02 to spice things up…</span></font>





Perhaps you can address the deeper question of weather or
not God created the Evil one (or $atan). With all due respect to Einstein, his system of logic doesn’t
quite account for the Evil one's existe

[Red,]

At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.BlueLetterBible.oRg) (Psalms 14:1 reads )


To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.


They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.

Team WandL Racing.

PMR components.

Red, *&lt;(:{)-

I thought evil was riding the #1 Top Gas bike in So. Cal.


smileys/smiley5.gif

[S2LR]

Here’s a link that sheds some interesting info on the dialogue
that supposedly</span> took place between Einstein and a professor as given in the
first post of this thread…</span></font>



http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp (http://www.snopes.com/religi&#111;n/einstein.asp)</span></font>



While Einstein did believe in a supreme being (which he
called the “old one�), the above link would seem to suggest that
the story in the original post is mythical…hmmmmm…</span></font>



Survey says…BZZZZZ…</span></font>

[S2LR]

I thought evil was riding the #1 Top Gas bike in So. Cal.


smileys/smiley5.gif

Wow...now that's something you don't hear everyday...Beelzebub dragracing a T/G bike in California Let me guess...his ET was 6.66...smileys/smiley15.gif

[sporty91]

At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.BlueLetterBible.oRg) ( Isaiah 45:7 reads )


I form the light, and create darkness:


I make peace, and create evil:


I the LORD do all these things.


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.

Team WandL Racing.

PMR components.

Red, *&lt;(:{)-





You are correct however the aramiac worddid not meansin but chaos read the other translations. The evil here was not the creation of sin, but of things like earthquakes and the like. Sodom &amp; Gomorrah come to mind. So God did not createevil Lusiferchose to rebell. He allows these things and even uses them at times. But sin was brought on by the devil then man picked it up and Jesus defeated it. Red I respect you very much, youstand up for Jesus even when its not the cool thing to do. As iron sharpens iron so does man sharpen another man. thanks for sharping me. Hope to meet you soon. Ride safe and be blessed. BTW any other views are welcome.Red please check this out. http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Isa/Isa045.htmlyou have to scroll down to get to verse 7 but worth the read.Edited by: sporty91

[sporty91]

Here’s a link that sheds some interesting info on the dialogue that supposedly took place between Einstein and a professor as given in the first post of this thread…<O:P></O:P>
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp (http://www.snopes.com/religi&#111;n/einstein.asp)<O:P></O:P>
While Einstein did believe in a supreme being (which he called the “old one�), the above link would seem to suggest that the story in the original post is mythical…hmmmmm…<O:P></O:P>


Survey says…BZZZZZ…




Even if Mr Einsteinisnot the one that said this or if it is made up the question is a valid one. The old one is a good name for God as one of his names is The ancient of days. As far as being split the whole world is split on this. Thanks for your post. You make some good points.

[jackinzoar]

sooooo where do I fit my AHDRA PG plates read 666 ,,and my devoutly religious mother saw the humor !

[sporty91]

sooooo where do I fit my AHDRA PG plates read 666 ,,and my devoutly religious mother saw the humor !


Jack , I would buy another number if I was you! Just kidding the number is only a number. As long as you don't buddy up with the devil you should be fine!

[Jagdpanzer]

what the hell I'll give this a go,,


If you accept the premise of an Omnipotent GOD as described in the Christian bible then you must agree that before there was anything there was only GOD therefore all other existences dimensions and beings or states of being must have been brought into existence by his action and so it follows that darkness did not exist of itself GOD had to make it. but this reminds of a story an old Nun told me....


One day Thomas Aquinas was walking along the shore contemplating the meaning of the trinity when he came upon a little girl running from the water up the beach with a bucket full of seawater and she promptly dumped it in a hole in the sand. She constantly repeated this action until he was moved to distraction and finally stopped the child and asked what she was doing. She replied happily" I'm going to empty the ocean into this hole!" "But little girl" he said, "thats impossible!" Looking at him with smiling eyes she retorted "Well I will get it done before you discover the meaning of the trinity"


cp

[MitchB]

Mr. RIce, your a funny mo fo. I'm still crackin up.


Mitch

[Red,]

I thought evil was riding the #1 Top Gas bike in So. Cal.


smileys/smiley5.gif




Wow...now that's something you don't hear everyday...


Beelzebub dragracing a T/G bike in California


Let me guess...his ET was 6.66...smileys/smiley15.gif





He said "I thought evil was riding the #1 Top Gas bike in So. Cal."


There was nothing there about beelzebub - Shayne . . .


Tank is a very good all around dragbike racer !


He gets razzed by www.SteveRiceRacing.com (http://www.SteveRiceRacing.com)


Pleaseunderstand our hearts are evil . . .


At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (Genisis 6:5reads )


And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,


and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~


When have you ever had to teach a kid to be selfish or lie


And always remember that Jesus loves you Mike.


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[jackinzoar]

sooooo where do I fit my AHDRA PG plates read 666 ,,and my devoutly religious mother saw the humor !


Jack , I would buy another number if I was you! Just kidding the number is only a number. As long as you don't buddy up with the devil you should be fine!

I picked it as a good luck charm ,, the devil will protect me as he knows the last thing he wants is me taking over (or having to listen to me for eternity) ,,and my competitors will be too concerned with stray lightening bolts to cut a good light

[hwrogers]

At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.BlueLetterBible.oRg) ( Isaiah 45:7 reads )


I form the light, and create darkness:


I make peace, and create evil:


I the LORD do all these things.


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.

Team WandL Racing.

PMR components.

Red, *&lt;(:{)-





in the new international version it says disaster, not evil, wich i think is more appropriate for the actuall translation, also the living version says;


i form the light and make the dark. i send good times and bad. i, jehova, am he who does these things.


that is isa. 45; 7 in the living version of the bible as it sits on my desk, and for the new international version it say disaster where the living says bad, and that blueletter says evil, thats part of the problem, we're speaking english... hardest language to acurately translate to or from any other language... we have too many words meaning too specificly what defines the reason for each word being slightly different, in aramaic i don't know the word most directly under question here but it apperently translates to any of these three at least (and most likely a couple more...) evil, disaster, bad times... but none of these really mean straight forward sin, ...


ok, now i'd like to see another view on this, but first on the existance of god hehe, book of romans, i will edit here tomorrow afternoon with the exact verse/verses but god has proven himself to every son and daughter of adam, as was quoted earlier "fools say in their hearts 'their is no god' "... if you want to say their is no god i ask that you do some very serious soul searching before you say such, try to disprove the bible in any way, i challenge anyone willing to do it, hundreds have failed before you for very good reason...

[Jagdpanzer]

Of course the proposal is a silly one, you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god through argument you can only believe one way or the other. as for the authenticity of the bible. there is no such scientific category. mainly because it's a compilation. you can only comparea particular versionto the source documents and that study will be going on for some time to come. you will also notice that over time when a new interpretation arises a new bible arises. and as I'm often fond of saying "when the bible is Law the priest will be king" and that state of affairs inthe modern world, gentlemen, we call Iran.


cp

[Red,]

Of course the proposal is a silly one, you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god through argument you can only believe one way or the other. as for the authenticity of the bible. there is no such scientific category. mainly because it's a compilation. you can only comparea particular versionto the source documents and that study will be going on for some time to come. you will also notice that over time when a new interpretation arises a new bible arises. and as I'm often fond of saying "when the bible is Law the priest will be king" and that state of affairs inthe modern world, gentlemen, we call Iran.


cp





At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (2 Peter 1:20 &amp; 21reads )


Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:


but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~


Without first looking to the Holy Spirit, we willnotunderstand.


Let's pray that we all have a very Merry Christmas . . .


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-

"The blind shall lead the blind"


s.r.

[Jagdpanzer]

"The blind shall lead the blind"


s.r.





And everybody into the ditch!~~smileys/smiley2.gif


cp

[sporty91]

"The blind shall lead the blind"


s.r.





Matthew 15;14 "Let them alone they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Jesus speaking BTW.


If you don't follow the blind you won't fall into the ditch! Study to show yourself aproved!

[sporty91]

Of course the proposal is a silly one, you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god through argument you can only believe one way or the other. as for the authenticity of the bible. there is no such scientific category. mainly because it's a compilation. you can only comparea particular versionto the source documents and that study will be going on for some time to come. you will also notice that over time when a new interpretation arises a new bible arises. and as I'm often fond of saying "when the bible is Law the priest will be king" and that state of affairs inthe modern world, gentlemen, we call Iran.


cp





At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (2 Peter 1:20 &amp; 21reads )


Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:


but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~


Without first looking to the Holy Spirit, we willnotunderstand.


Let's pray that we all have a very Merry Christmas . . .


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-





Well said Red w/o the Holy Spirit we will never understand.

[sporty91]

what the hell I'll give this a go,,


If you accept the premise of an Omnipotent GOD as described in the Christian bible then you must agree that before there was anything there was only GOD therefore all other existences dimensions and beings or states of being must have been brought into existence by his action and so it follows that darkness did not exist of itself GOD had to make it. but this reminds of a story an old Nun told me....


One day Thomas Aquinas was walking along the shore contemplating the meaning of the trinity when he came upon a little girl running from the water up the beach with a bucket full of seawater and she promptly dumped it in a hole in the sand. She constantly repeated this action until he was moved to distraction and finally stopped the child and asked what she was doing. She replied happily" I'm going to empty the ocean into this hole!" "But little girl" he said, "thats impossible!" Looking at him with smiling eyes she retorted "Well I will get it done before you discover the meaning of the trinity"


cp





The trinity one God with three parts, the Father the Son &amp; the Holy Spirit. We are also a three part being we have a body a soul and emotions each one seprate and all the same person! In Genesis when we were created God said let us make him in our image and our likeness, so it would seem that not only that we look like God but also have his emotions and a soul like him! We makethese thingsharder than theyare! We look to deep make to many laws to keep. Jesusgave only two comandments to follow and the other comandments would fall into place!

[Jagdpanzer]

Who would have thought we had so many men of the cloth in the dragbike world....just itching for a flock</font>


Now children, It is morally flawed to argue
theproof of a teaching from the teaching itself The first rule
you learn in grammar is that you can't use the word your defining in
the definition your giving..Thats why they call it preaching not
TEACHING.</font>


I would urge you to read some Joseph Campbell or
perhaps Carl Jung and for those of you who are really interested you
should start with the bahagavita then move to Buddha and then on to
Neitze </font>


get some theology!smileys/smiley17.gif</font>


cp</font>
Edited by: Admin

[Red,]

Who would have thought we had so many men of the cloth in the dragbike world....just itching for a flock


Now children, It is morally flawed to argue theproof of a teaching from the teaching itself The first rule you learn in grammar is that you can't use the word your defining in the definition your giving..That's why they call it preaching not TEACHING.


I would urge you to read some Joseph Campbell or perhaps Carl Jung and for those of you who are really interested you should start with the bahagavita then move to Buddha and then on to Neitze


get some theology!smileys/smiley17.gif


cp





At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (John 1: 1reads )


In the beginning was the Word,


and the Word was with God,


and the Word was God.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~


Jesus didn't have to spend countless years in bible school . . .


We need to lean on Jesus though the holy spirit.


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[Jagdpanzer]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~


Jesus didn't have to spend countless years in bible school . . .


We need to lean on Jesus though the holy spirit.


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-





You seem to be arguing, (with the the bibles words given in the context you prefer) that there should be no discussion on the topic of the existence of GOD, or any disputation with the commonly heldfundamentalist viewof baptist Christianity. for you the argument is settled. gotta love the simplicity of the fundies...but where youcome off telling people you know how much bible school Jesus had is beyond me.. who told you Jesus didn't have a modern religious education (modern for his day that is) And If you look at the amount of work done on religious philosophy between 500 BC and 400 AD you might admit that religious exploration was quite a bit more advanced than it is today


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

what the hell I'll give this a go,,


If you accept the premise of an Omnipotent GOD as described in the Christian bible then you must agree that before there was anything there was only GOD therefore all other existences dimensions and beings or states of being must have been brought into existence by his action and so it follows that darkness did not exist of itself GOD had to make it. but this reminds of a story an old Nun told me....


One day Thomas Aquinas was walking along the shore contemplating the meaning of the trinity when he came upon a little girl running from the water up the beach with a bucket full of seawater and she promptly dumped it in a hole in the sand. She constantly repeated this action until he was moved to distraction and finally stopped the child and asked what she was doing. She replied happily" I'm going to empty the ocean into this hole!" "But little girl" he said, "thats impossible!" Looking at him with smiling eyes she retorted "Well I will get it done before you discover the meaning of the trinity"


cp





The trinity one God with three parts, the Father the Son &amp; the Holy Spirit. We are also a three part being we have a body a soul and emotions each one seprate and all the same person! In Genesis when we were created God said let us make him in our image and our likeness, so it would seem that not only that we look like God but also have his emotions and a soul like him! We makethese thingsharder than theyare! We look to deep make to many laws to keep. Jesusgave only two comandments to follow and the other comandments would fall into place!





I'm sure the entire religious community not to mention philosophers long dead will be relived to know that you have succeeded where Thomas Aquinas failed! DoseOxford know your here


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:


but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."


This of course is religious double talk. reading it carefully and with the caveat that is so far out of context as to be from another planet you will see that unless you happened to be personal involved in this argumentbetween Peter andsome followers who making claims of divine enlightenment it means absolutly nothing.


Unless someone here would like to raise their hand and claim to have been in a room with someone who has recently areceived prophesy from God....that being the case please spit it out! we havent had one in some 2000 yrs unless you count,, sun yung moon, jim jones or possibly david koresh


Now you could take the the Catholic versionof this which is to say don't be talking out of turn and saying things about the bible without approval of the leadership but thats all gone thanks to protestantism


cp


Edited by: Jagdpanzer

[sporty91]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~


Jesus didn't have to spend countless years in bible school . . .


We need to lean on Jesus though the holy spirit.


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-





You seem to be arguing, (with the the bibles words given in the context you prefer) that there should be no discussion on the topic of the existence of GOD, or any disputation with the commonly heldfundamentalist viewof baptist Christianity. for you the argument is settled. gotta love the simplicity of the fundies...but where youcome off telling people you know how much bible school Jesus had is beyond me.. who told you Jesus didn't have a modern religious education (modern for his day that is) And If you look at the amount of work done on religious philosophy between 500 BC and 400 AD you might admit that religious exploration was quite a bit more advanced than it is today


cp





Jesus was teaching the church leaders when he was 12 years old. See the passages when Joseph and Mary lost Jesus and had to go back and find him I belive his answer was, didn't you know I was about my fathers business No need for bible school when you wrote the book!

[sporty91]

what the hell I'll give this a go,,


If you accept the premise of an Omnipotent GOD as described in the Christian bible then you must agree that before there was anything there was only GOD therefore all other existences dimensions and beings or states of being must have been brought into existence by his action and so it follows that darkness did not exist of itself GOD had to make it. but this reminds of a story an old Nun told me....


One day Thomas Aquinas was walking along the shore contemplating the meaning of the trinity when he came upon a little girl running from the water up the beach with a bucket full of seawater and she promptly dumped it in a hole in the sand. She constantly repeated this action until he was moved to distraction and finally stopped the child and asked what she was doing. She replied happily" I'm going to empty the ocean into this hole!" "But little girl" he said, "thats impossible!" Looking at him with smiling eyes she retorted "Well I will get it done before you discover the meaning of the trinity"


cp





The trinity one God with three parts, the Father the Son &amp; the Holy Spirit. We are also a three part being we have a body a soul and emotions each one seprate and all the same person! In Genesis when we were created God said let us make him in our image and our likeness, so it would seem that not only that we look like God but also have his emotions and a soul like him! We makethese thingsharder than theyare! We look to deep make to many laws to keep. Jesusgave only two comandments to follow and the other comandments would fall into place!





I'm sure the entire religious community not to mention philosophers long dead will be relived to know that you have succeeded where Thomas Aquinas failed! DoseOxford know your here


cp





Don't know if they do or not. I can only say what has beenshown to me, I maynot bethe sharpest tool in the shead. However most of Jesus' deciples was common men that had no schooling so I don't to much worry about that. As Red has said the holy Spirit will show you more than any school. I really don't think God cares about how smart you are as much as whats in your heart.Edited by: sporty91

[Jagdpanzer]

[/QUOTE]


Jesus was teaching the church leaders when he was 12 years old. See the passages when Joseph and Mary lost Jesus and had to go back and find him I belive his answer was, didn't you know I was about my fathers business No need for bible school when you wrote the book!


[/QUOTE]


As easy as this sounds it's really so much crap. the story relates his supposed advanced understanding of religious concepts but never addreses how he came by that knowlege and you also have to account the fact that it was written by Luke who did not know Jesus and never met him. arriving on the scene some 30 yrs after his death Luke was basicly a Christian proagandist retelling tall tales that were commonly circulated in the church. he was included in the Nicean agreements because his writtings did not grossly deviate from the eyewitness accounts. but many of the legendary aspects of christ's life that do not directly affect doctrine are by him


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

[/QUOTE]


Don't know if they do or not. I can only say what has beenshown to me, I maynot bethe sharpest tool in the shead. However most of Jesus' deciples was common men that had no schooling so I don't to much worry about that. As Red has said the holy Spirit will show you more than any school. I really don't think God cares about how smart you are as much as whats in your heart.


[/QUOTE]


Honestly if what you said was true there would have been no need to write the book at all. the holy spirit would just tell you what you need to know.


Now as far as I have read in the bible, the holy spirit communicating with common men is indeed a rarefied thing. happening once every 5 to 700 yrs or so between communications..but now sometime after the invention of radio it seems to happen every ten minutes or so and every fool who reads the bible thinks god is talking to him..and the thing that baffles me is they never say anything.


Yes it seems to me that modern man has a very low opinion of the holy spirit.


cpEdited by: Jagdpanzer

[sporty91]

Jesus was teaching the church leaders when he was 12 years old. See the passages when Joseph and Mary lost Jesus and had to go back and find him I belive his answer was, didn't you know I was about my fathers business No need for bible school when you wrote the book!


[/QUOTE]


As easy as this sounds it's really so much crap. the story relates his supposed advanced understanding of religious concepts but never addreses how he came by that knowlege and you also have to account the fact that it was written by Luke who did not know Jesus and never met him. arriving on the scene some 30 yrs after his death Luke was basicly a Christian proagandist retelling tall tales that were commonly circulated in the church. he was included in the Nicean agreements because his writtings did not grossly deviate from the eyewitness accounts. but many of the legendary aspects of christ's life that do not directly affect doctrine are by him


cp


[/QUOTE]


See thats where you and I differ I belive the bible is the word of God and Jesus was the author. Sounds like you have been to school on this and I respect that. I just know what the lord has shown me. For me to belive what a man teaches on the bible it would have to align with the word, if not it is just from a man.

[sporty91]

Don't know if they do or not. I can only say what has beenshown to me, I maynot bethe sharpest tool in the shead. However most of Jesus' deciples was common men that had no schooling so I don't to much worry about that. As Red has said the holy Spirit will show you more than any school. I really don't think God cares about how smart you are as much as whats in your heart.


[/QUOTE]


Honestly if what you said was true there would have been no need to write the book at all. the holy spirit would just tell you what you need to know.


Now as far as I have read in the bible, the holy spirit communicating with common men is indeed a rarefied thing. happening once every 5 to 700 yrs or so between communications..but now sometime after the invention of radio it seems to happen every ten minutes or so and every fool who reads the bible thinks god is talking to him..and the thing that baffles me is they never say anything.


Yes it seems to me that modern man has a very low opinion of the holy spirit.


cp


[/QUOTE]


After Jesus asceded to heaven he sent the Holy Spirit to all christians. The whole thing about the gift Jesus gave us, is it's the only thing that can get us back to the Father. Before Adam fell he walked and talked to God every day in the garden if jesus came to restore that relationship with the Father, then talking to God should be a daily thing.

[S2LR]

I thought evil was riding the #1 Top Gas bike in So. Cal.


smileys/smiley5.gif




Wow...now that's something you don't hear everyday...


Beelzebub dragracing a T/G bike in California


Let me guess...his ET was 6.66...smileys/smiley15.gif





He said "I thought evil was riding the #1 Top Gas bike in So. Cal."


There was nothing there about beelzebub - Shayne . . .


Tank is a very good all around dragbike racer !


He gets razzed by www.SteveRiceRacing.com (http://www.SteveRiceRacing.com)

I said "Beelzebub dragracing a T/G bike in California"

There was nothing there about "Tank" - Red...

My reply was intended to be a JOKE...

This is the Funny, Sick, or Twisted forum is it not Let's not get too smileys/smiley26.gif here...

[S2LR]

If you accept the premise of an Omnipotent GOD as described in the Christian bible then you must agree that before there was anything there was only GOD therefore all other existences dimensions and beings or states of being must have been brought into existence by his action...
</font>

I was wondering who lit that firecracker called the big bang...smileys/smiley2.gif

[Hebephrenia]

Wow, intereting thread. Since all of us are Sh$#house philosophers, I'll throw in my two cents worth. In fact, it was man that created God, notthe other way around. He created god because he needed HOPE. Why hope because men have to have an explanation of the meaning of life; why we are here, what we are doing, and why things happen. And so we created the great pacifier---religion, to turn towhen we can't explain things. The fact is, aside from proported scripture, nobody has seen god. You say, "I feel him." No, what you really feel is EMOTION born only of hope. There is absolutely no proof of life after life. People say they have been there--a near death experience. Bull.It is the hypoxic brain that produces the euphoria and visualizations. It is random electrical activity produced by the dying brain--nodifferent than dreaming while in REM sleep. People will say,"I've had a religous experience and felt thespirit." No, what you have felt is hysteria, nodifferent fromthe mass hysteria of Tarantism or St. Vitus Dance in history. I suppose that if religion gives you hope, that's cool. It may make life a bit easier. If there is no god, there is no devil, therefore there is no evil, because evil is of the devil. Okay philosophy boys playing drag racer; Modus tolens or modus ponenssmileys/flame.gif

[Jagdpanzer]

If you accept the premise of an Omnipotent GOD as described in the Christian bible then you must agree that before there was anything there was only GOD therefore all other existences dimensions and beings or states of being must have been brought into existence by his action...





I was wondering who lit that firecracker called the big bang...smileys/smiley2.gif






And can you imagine the machine shop he built it in!~~http://forums.dragbike.com/smileys/smiley20.gif


cp

[jackinzoar]

"Big Bang" ,,,, does'nt this refer to "is it rich or is it lean" ,,, even blow thru vs draw thru would be better ,,, otherwise consult the administrators about a "Sunday Service" category !!!

[Jagdpanzer]

[/QUOTE]


See thats where you and I differ I belive the bible is the word of God and Jesus was the author. Sounds like you have been to school on this and I respect that. I just know what the lord has shown me. For me to belive what a man teaches on the bible it would have to align with the word, if not it is just from a man.


[/QUOTE]


Well I have the utmost respect for faith, it has moved mountains as the saying goes. not to mention warding off depression.But most evangelicals claim to believe the bible is the absolute word of God really in fact don't believe this at all. they just make a mental cartoon equal to the latest perception they have of a book they haven't entirely read through out and imagine thats the complete Word of God. If pressed on the issue they will usually admit you shouldn't be stoned for breaking any one of236 commandments listed in Leviticus. or that if a woman grabs a man scrotum while while he is engaged in a fistfight with her husband she should have her hand cut off or that abortion is the quickest way to tell if your wife has been cheating on you (first documented case of government sanctioned abortion by the way). not too many evangelicals like to hear that and catholics heads explode when you point that stuff out. (as well it should).


cp





Edited by: Jagdpanzer

[Jagdpanzer]

Wow, interesting thread. Since all of us are Sh$#house philosophers, I'll throw in my two cents worth. In fact, it was man that created God, notthe other way around. He created god because he needed HOPE. Why hope because men have to have an explanation of the meaning of life; why we are here, what we are doing, and why things happen. And so we created the great pacifier---religion, to turn towhen we can't explain things. The fact is, aside from proported scripture, nobody has seen god. You say, "I feel him." No, what you really feel is EMOTION born only of hope. There is absolutely no proof of life after life. People say they have been there--a near death experience. Bull.It is the hypoxic brain that produces the euphoria and visualizations. It is random electrical activity produced by the dying brain--nodifferent than dreaming while in REM sleep. People will say,"I've had a religous experience and felt thespirit." No, what you have felt is hysteria, nodifferent fromthe mass hysteria of Tarantism or St. Vitus Dance in history. I suppose that if religion gives you hope, that's cool. It may make life a bit easier. If there is no god, there is no devil, therefore there is no evil, because evil is of the devil. Okay philosophy boys playing drag racer; Modus tolens or modus ponenssmileys/flame.gif





Thank you Karl Marx!~~smileys/smiley17.gif


Modus Tolens! The ID is greater than the sum of it's parts, The questiondear Horatiois not, is there a God but is it mesmileys/smiley10.gif or is it youhttp://forums.dragbike.com/smileys/smiley15.gif


cp

[Red,]

At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (Matthew 6 : 24 )


No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other;


or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.


Ye cannot serve God and mammon


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~


That's a good point, but we do need to make a choice . . .


Either follow Jesus to heaven or satan to hell


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[sporty91]

At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (Matthew 6 : 24 )


No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other;


or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.


Ye cannot serve God and mammon


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~


That's a good point, but we do need to make a choice . . .


Either follow Jesus to heaven or satan to hell


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-





Really if you make no choice the choice is already made, as Jesus said no one comes unto the Father except by me.

[Jagdpanzer]

How did we get on to money


having been a evangelical at one point in my young life I havealways thought Americans should refrain from quoting that particular passage especially American preachers


cp

[sporty91]

How did we get on to money


having been a evangelical at one point in my young life I havealways thought Americans should refrain from quoting that particular passage especially American preachers


cp





Money is not the problem the LOVE of it is!

[Jagdpanzer]

OH yea I forgot~~LOL~smileys/smiley17.gif


In my case I think Gods getting the bad end of that deal.


cp

[sporty91]

OH yea I forgot~~LOL~smileys/smiley17.gif


In my case I think Gods getting the bad end of that deal.


cp





Yeah, I would have to agree with you there! Their would be a bunch of rich young rulers out there!smileys/smiley2.gif

[Hebephrenia]

[/QUOTE]


Thank you Karl Marx!~~smileys/smiley17.gif


Modus Tolens! The ID is greater than the sum of it's parts, The questiondear Horatiois not, is there a God but is it mesmileys/smiley10.gif or is it youhttp://forums.dragbike.com/smileys/smiley15.gif


cp


[/QUOTE]


Haha...........Very good! You have chosen correctly.





Red,


You keep quoting scripture, but if I don't believe in it, it is no more relevant than my belief that the moon is made of green cheese. Tell me, which of the several thousand churches that teach out of the same book (Bible) is the correct one Remember that most differ dramatically regarding what is necessary to gain salvation, yet all claim to interprete the Bible correctly. Tell me, Red, and don't quote scripture.

[Red,]

My words don't hold a candle to the word of God . . .


I know what he's shown me with his word.


Street legal dragbikes I'll talk about.


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[sporty91]

Thank you Karl Marx!~~smileys/smiley17.gif


Modus Tolens! The ID is greater than the sum of it's parts, The questiondear Horatiois not, is there a God but is it mesmileys/smiley10.gif or is it youhttp://forums.dragbike.com/smileys/smiley15.gif


cp


[/QUOTE]


Haha...........Very good! You have chosen correctly.





Red,


You keep quoting scripture, but if I don't believe in it, it is no more relevant than my belief that the moon is made of green cheese. Tell me, which of the several thousand churches that teach out of the same book (Bible) is the correct one Remember that most differ dramatically regarding what is necessary to gain salvation, yet all claim to interprete the Bible correctly. Tell me, Red, and don't quote scripture.


[/QUOTE]


I would like a crack at this, it does not matter what the churches teach what matters is what the bible says. Jesus said he was the only way back to the Father. With out him any works or deeds is worthless. As far as gainning salvation its a gift not earned so the only way to gain salvation is a child like faith in the son of God Jesus. Read the bible onced saved the Holy Spirit will help you with the meanning. Hope this helps.

[jackinzoar]

Helter Skelter in a summer swelter ,, the byrds flew off to a fallout shelter ,,,,

[Hebephrenia]

Jack, you are the true king of one-liners with maybe Steve Rice as a close second--keeps me laughing all the time.


Back to evil, though. Okay, are people born evil (like a bad seed), or is evil developed If you buy intowhat some bible thumpers call"original sin" (Adam sinned, so everyone who came after is a sinner) then we are all born evil. What think ye I'm waiting for someone to say that I am possessed of the devil.


Sporty 91, yes, you are correct. Salvation (meaning life after death) is a free gift wrought through the atonement of Christ. However, this doesn't mean it is the same as exaltation. This you have to earn. Rember the rich, young ruler who inquired of Christ as to how to gain salvation Christ told him to sell all he had and follow him, so evidently he wasn't saved according to your definition, but had to do MORE. Faith without works is dead, being alone....(James). Read your bible closely sporty 91. Remember, if you're luke warm, you will be spewed out of Christ's mouth......smileys/brutal_46.gif

[S2LR]

I would like a at this, it does not matter what the churches teach what matters is what the bible says...


What It doesn't matter what the churches teach Don't they teach and preach from the Bible smileys/smiley5.gif.

You claim that "all that matters is what the Bible says" If this is the case, who determines the CORRECT interpretation of various passages that define doctrine, salvation, form of worship, ordinances, etc. Is it Benny Hinn You Billy Graham Maybe it's Pat Robertson...or even Red...as the oracle of truth...smileys/smiley2.gif.

[S2LR]

My words don't hold a candle to the word of God . . .


I know what he's shown me with his word.


Street legal dragbikes I'll talk about.

Wow...I didn't know that God had shown you street legal dragbikes with his word...smileys/smiley2.gif That's cool. I guess I'd better read the word more closely. Maybe there's something in there about head porting that will lead me to horsepower nirvana...

[jackinzoar]

on the 8th day he created wheelie bars ,and banished satan and his "boxes"

[sporty91]

Jack, you are the true king of one-liners with maybe Steve Rice as a close second--keeps me laughing all the time.


Back to evil, though. Okay, are people born evil (like a bad seed), or is evil developed If you buy intowhat some bible thumpers call"original sin" (Adam sinned, so everyone who came after is a sinner) then we are all born evil. What think ye I'm waiting for someone to say that I am possessed of the devil.


Sporty 91, yes, you are correct. Salvation (meaning life after death) is a free gift wrought through the atonement of Christ. However, this doesn't mean it is the same as exaltation. This you have to earn. Rember the rich, young ruler who inquired of Christ as to how to gain salvation Christ told him to sell all he had and follow him, so evidently he wasn't saved according to your definition, but had to do MORE. Faith without works is dead, being alone....(James). Read your bible closely sporty 91. Remember, if you're luke warm, you will be spewed out of Christ's mouth......smileys/brutal_46.gif








True that the rich young ruler was not saved, his problem was he loved his things and money more than christ! If he had not cared so much about his money Christ would have never asked him to get rid of it. Our works are not to save but because of salvation. What I do for the kingdom is because I love him not toget salvation. As far as exaltation we sould be wanting to exaltChrist, he said if I be lifted up I'll draw all men unto me. Sin follows the mans seed that is why Jesus was able to be sinless from birth, the neened chromaziones[sp] 26 from eachparent the26 from Mary carried no sin the other 26 came from the Holy Spirit with no sin in them. Toexplain why the sin follows the male seed we need to go back to the fall of man. Eve ate first and nothing happened however when Adam ate them both knew they were naked. The covanet was not with Eve but Adam, The female seed carries no sin so Jesus was able to be born of a woman and still be sinless. I doubt that you are possessed of the devil we all are opressed by him. He was defeated on thr cross so the best he can do is take as many of us with him as he can. He hates God so he also hates us because we looklike what he hates. Not to even talk about we replaced him as Gods best creation. I do belive people learn how to be more evil but the sin is born into all of us. I have a new grandson he will cry when nothing is wrong just tp see if you will pick him up so the lies have already started.As if there was nothing wrong he should not cry. [Please don't jump on me for using him as a example I love him and pick him up even when hes fibbing!] Hope this helps. Have a blessed day.

[sporty91]

I would like a at this, it does not matter what the churches teach what matters is what the bible says...





What It doesn't matter what the churches teach Don't they teach and preach from the Bible smileys/smiley5.gif.

You claim that "all that matters is what the Bible says" If this is the case, who determines the CORRECT interpretation of various passages that define doctrine, salvation, form of worship, ordinances, etc. Is it Benny Hinn You Billy Graham Maybe it's Pat Robertson...or even Red...as the oracle of truth...smileys/smiley2.gif.






You sould not depend on any of these men or churchs, the bible tells us to work out our own salavtion with fear and trembling. Some churchs and people will twist the word to fit their ways. That is wrong, the message should change us not us change the message! Reread my post once saved the Holy Spirit will help you with the meaning. However you should study to show your self approved. Their are words in all translations that need to be looked at in the language they were written in. Strongs concordance is a good place to start that way you can read it for yourself w/o others putting in their twist. BTW God is the only truth there is so his words or oracles are the only truth. I belive Red will agree with me on this, am I correct RedEdited by: sporty91

[S2LR]

You sould not depend on any of these men or churchs, the bible tells us to work out our own salavtion with fear and trembling. Some churchs and people will twist the word to fit their ways. That is wrong, the message should change us not us change the message! Reread my post once saved the Holy Spirit will help you with the meaning. However you should study to show your self approved. Their are words in all translations that need to be looked at in the language they were written in. Strongs concordance is a good place to start that way you can read it for yourself w/o others putting in their twist. BTW God is the only truth there is so his words or oracles are the only truth. I belive Red will agree with me on this, am I correct Red

You're not addressing the question. Intellectually, spiritually (whatever that means) or logically, I don't find your comments convincing. What if I read the same passage of scripture as you do and interpret it differently I claim that I'm saved by the Holy Spirit just as you yet I get a different "spin" on the interpretation thereof. Who's correct You or me

Take, for example, Christ's baptism as given in the Gospels. This incident brings up several questions doctrinally. First off, we find three manifestations of God suggesting that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are possibly separate and distinct, yet classical Christian theology advances the Triune God concept which is a mass of confusion in it's own right. We also have issues with the Baptism itself...why was Christ baptized He states that "it is to fulfill all RIGHTEOUSNESS". Does this mean that we need to be baptized to be saved Aren't we supposed to follow his example What about the mode of Christ's baptism Was he immersed in the water or was he sprinkled upon See the problem

I don't know how many Christians I've engaged in the past that all claim (like you) that they're saved. Yet when a conversation on the particulars is brought up, they present a different spin...amazing...

Personally I think it's all a bunch of nonsense...but now that I've said this, Red or you will probably quote 1 Cor. 2:14 to me. That's ok...I can take it like a "natural man"...smileys/smiley2.gif
Edited by: S2LR

[sporty91]

You sould not depend on any of these men or churchs, the bible tells us to work out our own salavtion with fear and trembling. Some churchs and people will twist the word to fit their ways. That is wrong, the message should change us not us change the message! Reread my post once saved the Holy Spirit will help you with the meaning. However you should study to show your self approved. Their are words in all translations that need to be looked at in the language they were written in. Strongs concordance is a good place to start that way you can read it for yourself w/o others putting in their twist. BTW God is the only truth there is so his words or oracles are the only truth. I belive Red will agree with me on this, am I correct Red






You're not addressing the question. Intellectually, spiritually (whatever that means) or logically, I don't find your comments convincing. What if I read the same passage of scripture as you do and interpret it differently I claim that I'm saved by the Holy Spirit just as you yet I get a different "spin" on the interpretation thereof. Who's correct You or me

Take, for example, Christ's baptism as given in the Gospels. This incident brings up several questions doctrinally. First off, we find three manifestations of God suggesting that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are possibly separate and distinct, yet classical Christian theology advances the Triune God concept which is a mass of confusion in it's own right. We also have issues with the Baptism itself...why was Christ baptized He states that "it is to fulfill all RIGHTEOUSNESS". Does this mean that we need to be baptized to be saved Aren't we supposed to follow his example What about the mode of Christ's baptism Was he immersed in the water or was he sprinkled upon See the problem

I don't know how many Christians I've engaged in the past that all claim (like you) that they're saved. Yet when a conversation on the particulars is brought up, they present a different spin...amazing...

Personally I think it's all a bunch of nonsense...but now that I've said this, Red or you will probably quote 1 Cor. 2:14 to me. That's ok...I can take it like a "natural man"...smileys/smiley2.gif



We can get hung up on details if you want, however on the cross Jesus told one of the theives he would be with him in paridice[sp]. So being baptized is good but not required for salvation. As far as sprinkling or immersion I don't think something as small as that will keep you out of heaven as long as you belive in the son of God Jesus, do your bset to follow him the bible says you will be saved. As far as reading the same passage and getting different spins we are all different people why do you think their are 4 different Gospels The word is a living word so according to where you are is what you will understand. again the church can put things on us that Jesus came to set us free from look at what he said to and about the leaders of the church of that day. If you belive Jesus is who he said he is then the rest is details. All the diffrent churches will find they had some of it wrong when we get toheaven, look in revalation the churches Christ talked about all had things they could do better. What I am saying is depend on Jesus to save you study the word yourself and find out what is true. The trinty is not as hard to understand as people make it, you have a body, emotions and a soul three differnt parts of you but they are still you. God made us in his Image and likness we are his finest work we were made to have a relationship with him and be his friend he loved us so much he sent his only son Jesus to restore that. We only have to accept the free gift to get back to where we should be. Is there a cost yes we have to love him more than anyone or thing but it really is not that hard when you know how much he loved us first. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


Jesus said to have a childlike faith if a child i

[Red,]

I guess I'd better read the word more closely.


Maybe there's something in there about head porting that will lead me to horsepower nirvana...





Now that's some funny stuff right there . . .


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-

So, with all this talk about God, it brings me to wonder.


Why did he create Hondas

[Red,]

So, with all this talk about God, it brings me to wonder.


Why did he create Hondas





Certainly they're like fleas to the other bikes . . .


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.

Team WandL Racing.

PMR components.

Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[S2LR]

We can get hung up on details if you want, however on the cross Jesus told one of the theives he would be with him in paridice[sp]. So being baptized is good but not required for salvation. As far as sprinkling or immersion I don't think something as small as that will keep you out of heaven as long as you belive in the son of God Jesus, do your bset to follow him the bible says you will be saved. As far as reading the same passage and getting different spins we are all different people why do you think their are 4 different Gospels The word is a living word so according to where you are is what you will understand. again the church can put things on us that Jesus came to set us free from look at what he said to and about the leaders of the church of that day. If you belive Jesus is who he said he is then the rest is details. All the diffrent churches will find they had some of it wrong when we get toheaven, look in revalation the churches Christ talked about all had things they could do better. What I am saying is depend on Jesus to save you study the word yourself and find out what is true. The trinty is not as hard to understand as people make it, you have a body, emotions and a soul three differnt parts of you but they are still you. God made us in his Image and likness we are his finest work we were made to have a relationship with him and be his friend he loved us so much he sent his only son Jesus to restore that. We only have to accept the free gift to get back to where we should be. Is there a cost yes we have to love him more than anyone or thing but it really is not that hard when you know how much he loved us first. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


Jesus said to have a childlike faith if a child is in trouble andtheir father comes to savethem do you think the child cares if he uses his left or right hand or even a rope for that matter My point is everyones path to the cross is different and thats ok. The Lord saved me from different things than you or Red I might not understand where you were when God saved you but he did. Jesus even said the one forgiven more will love more, so some will do more for the kingdom but that does not mean the others are not saved. Just they had a different salvation experince.


Actually you’ve muddied the waters even further. Who am I to believe I talked with an evangelical
someone else that said baptism was necessary for salvation! Who’s right You or him He told me he was "saved" too...smileys/smiley5.gif </span></font>



You appear to do too much hand waving in dismissing important
points of doctrine taught in the Bible. If God didn’t think it important,
why are those things in there According to your spin, the Bible should only be
one page long stating that Christ came, died for our sins, rose three days
later, and…oh yeah…that we should believe in him by accepting him
as our personal Savior (whatever that means). Sounds simple to me…too
simple in fact. As the old adage goes…�if something sounds too good
to be true, it probably is�.</span></font>



Your Trinity analogy also doesn’t quite fit. Since when
does my body, emotions, and soul get separated out distinctly (except when I’m
dead) God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are manifested as three
separate personages or entities at his Baptism. Now you’ll probably tell
me that it was a temporary state and that they all jumped back into one God
after the incident.
</span></font>You also

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=sporty91]


We can get hung up on details if you want, however on the cross Jesus told one of the theives he would be with him in paridice[sp]. So being baptized is good but not required for salvation. As far as sprinkling or immersion I don't think something as small as that will keep you out of heaven as long as you belive in the son of God Jesus, do your bset to follow him the bible says you will be saved. As far as reading the same passage and getting different spins we are all different people why do you think their are 4 different Gospels The word is a living word so according to where you are is what you will understand. again the church can put things on us that Jesus came to set us free from look at what he said to and about the leaders of the church of that day. If you belive Jesus is who he said he is then the rest is details. All the diffrent churches will find they had some of it wrong when we get toheaven, look in revalation the churches Christ talked about all had things they could do better. What I am saying is depend on Jesus to save you study the word yourself and find out what is true. The trinty is not as hard to understand as people make it, you have a body, emotions and a soul three differnt parts of you but they are still you. God made us in his Image and likness we are his finest work we were made to have a relationship with him and be his friend he loved us so much he sent his only son Jesus to restore that. We only have to accept the free gift to get back to where we should be. Is there a cost yes we have to love him more than anyone or thing but it really is not that hard when you know how much he loved us first. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


Jesus said to have a childlike faith if a child is in trouble andtheir father comes to savethem do you think the child cares if he uses his left or right hand or even a rope for that matter My point is everyones path to the cross is different and thats ok. The Lord saved me from different things than you or Red I might not understand where you were when God saved you but he did. Jesus even said the one forgiven more will love more, so some will do more for the kingdom but that does not mean the others are not saved. Just they had a different salvation experince.



Actually you’ve muddied the waters even further. Who am I to believe I talked with an evangelical someone else that said baptism was necessary for salvation! Who’s right You or him He told me he was "saved" too...smileys/smiley5.gif <O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>You appear to do too much hand waving in dismissing important points of doctrine taught in the Bible. If God didn’t think it important, why are those things in there According to your spin, the Bible should only be one page long stating that Christ came, died for our sins, rose three days later, and…oh yeah…that we should believe in him by accepting him as our personal Savior (whatever that means). Sounds simple to me…too simple in fact. As the old adage goes…�if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is�.<O:P></O:P>
Your Trinity analogy also doesn’t quite fit. Since when does my body, emotions, and soul get separated out distinctly (except when I’m dead) God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are manifested as three separate personages or entities at his Baptism. Now you’ll probably tell me that it was a temporary state and that they all jumped back into one God after the incident.

You also say we’re created in G

[jackinzoar]

Not a word was spoken ,, the church bells all were broken ,,,, And the 3 men I admire most ,, Richie Potsy and Donnie Most ,, they caught the last train for the coast ,,,,,,,,

[jackinzoar]

So, with all this talk about God, it brings me to wonder.


Why did he create Hondas


semi final salvation for yamaha's

[Hebephrenia]

So, with all this talk about God, it brings me to wonder.


Why did he create Hondas





There has to be opposition in all things----mechanical and performancesmileys/smiley14.gif

[Hebephrenia]

[/QUOTE]


Sin follows the mans seed that is why Jesus was able to be sinless from birth, the neened chromaziones[sp] 26 from eachparent the26 from Mary carried no sin the other 26 came from the Holy Spirit with no sin in them. Toexplain why the sin follows the male seed we need to go back to the fall of man. Eve ate first and nothing happened however when Adam ate them both knew they were naked. The covanet was not with Eve but Adam, The female seed carries no sin so Jesus was able to be born of a woman and still be sinless. I do belive people learn how to be more evil but the sin is born into all of us. I have a new grandson he will cry when nothing is wrong just tp see if you will pick him up so the lies have already started.As if there was nothing wrong he should not cry. [Please don't jump on me for using him as a example I love him and pick him up even when hes fibbing!] Hope this helps. Have a blessed day.


[/QUOTE]


You've got to be freakingkidding me, right Thisreads like some acid trip gone bad. From the top: I am using the term "depraved" synonymous with the doctrine of "original sin". It is actually called "Heredity total Depravity".


1-If one is estranged from God by the mere fact of conception, and hence enters the world that way, how could one TURN ASIDE from the Lord (Rom 3:12);how could we all "LIKE SHEEP GONE ASTRAY (Isa. 53:6) If one is born astray, he cannot go astray! Furthermore, if a person is born totally depraved as you claim, how do evil men become worse and worse(2 Tim. 3: 13)


2-The Bible teaches that the practice of either good or evil is a matter of choice (Isa7: 15,16), not freaking chance!


3- We will not stand before God to be judged on the basis of an evil nature inherited from Adam, but rather for our own personal deeds will we give an accounting (2 Cor. 5:10; Rom. 14:12)


4-The Bible does not view little children as totally corrupt sinners, but instead they are consistently held up as models for the rest of us to emulate. Your Bible, Sporty, says in Matt 19: 14, "But Jesus said, suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for such is the kingdom of HEAVEN." Itsure doesn't sound like kids are sinful to me, and that's your ownBible talking fella. Can one imagine that Christ meant to admonish, "Except yeturn and become as a LITTLE DEPRAVED CHILD, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" No, he constantly admonished us all to be as littlechildren. The doctrine of originalsin is a doctrine of demons, ifyou believe in them. Pick up thatgrandsonof yours andcomfort him because his brain is still developing andhesignals hisphysical and emotional needs by crying, instead ofinterpreting his cries as the "lies beginning."


You need to summon your "Spiritual Bretheren" because you are being slaughtered, unless of course RED has already jumped from the burning ship. I thought you guys supported each other like Timothy and Titus and Saul and Barnabus etc.

[NUTZ]

I have found over the years that if you have three different people read the same verse in the Bible, you can get three different explanations, thus different religions. Unlike a mathmatical problem ( 2+2=4, 6x8=48 etc. ), that has hard facts, interpretation of the written word can and will differ. Then you have to figure in that the Bible was written by a "MAN". Believe in GOD, yes I do.But do you have to believe a MAN If a story is started by one person, by the time it is retold 100 times, it will be a different version of the original story. And you have to account for the different versions of the Bible. So, this debatecan not and will not be finalized. But at the same time, disscusion and debateCAN be a good thing. Look at it this way. Not everyone rides the same make of bike. Not everyone rides for the same reason. How do you define theONLY bike Just some food for thought. At the very least these disscusions exercise the mind. And that is a good thing. Enough of my rambling. By the time we REALLY know the answer to this age old debate, we won't be able to tell the others, due to the fact we will be dead and gone. THAT'S WHY ITS CALLED FAITH

[S2LR]

I'm not discounting anything in the bible, again I say you have to read it for your self not to depend on any one person to tell you what to belive. You are a very smart person you have been able to bring out some very good points. Now use that to study the bible you have already been reading it, I can tell. Dig into the word seek him. This is one thing that is true, the thing is nothing you can do will help you get salvation. Jesus is the only way! He said so. Does it matter if we as mortals can't figure out every thing, the word says we see through a glass darkly. But on the other side everything will be made clear. We are made in Gods image yes he has a head arms legs and everything we have eyes ears ect.. God even let moses see his coat tails moses glowed for days. Don't know about the beard and allthe robe he has it talks about it in the bible.We have the same form as God. The trinty is one God with three persons we can't seprate our parts but we are not God. Here is one thing I can say for sure if you seek him you will find him. Look up Lee Stroble he has written a few books after finding Christ, He was athist[sp] trying to prove God was fake he sought him and found him! This is something each of us have to do own our own. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


Let me add one more thing the bible is a book written by at least 66 men inspired by the Holy spirit. The old testament points forward to Chirst the new testament points back to Christ. It is all good for rightious living. We all have different jobs the hands can't do the job of the feet and so on. The different churches will do the job that they are made for then in heaven we will be shown the perfect will of God. We as mortals could never understand all of it here even with the holy spirit. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.
Ok…so you concede that God is in
the form of a man yet you still hold true to the Triune God concept…correct

</span></font>Based on this core belief, let’s
examine this God theology a bit further. First off, I’m still waiting for
you to explain to me what took place during Christ’s baptism regarding
the three distinct entities that are clearly revealed. You also need to explain
the incident where Stephen was being stoned and saw “Jesus standing on
the right hand of God� as given in Acts 7:55…yet again another
manifestation of two distinct entities. How about John 14:16, 26 or John 16:7
in which the “Comforter� (i.e. the Holy Ghost) is clearly separated
out from the other two members of the Godhead. </span></font>

Here’s another problem. Do you
believe that Christ was resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone
as given in Luke 24:39 If yes, then according to your beliefs, God the Father has
a body also since they’re one and the same being. But wait…that can’t
be…so…if they’re not one and the same being, who’s more
perfected Christ with a resurrected body of flesh and bone or God as a
personage of spirit Please explain Perhaps Christ dropped his body of
flesh and bone off after he cleared the clouds during his ascension as given in Acts
1:11 to be absorbed into the God collective…but wait…that would
imply that Christ died twice since de@th by definition is a separation of the
spirit and body. Are we bewildered yet I think one would have better luck
understanding the nuances of Schrodinger’s cat in quantum mechanics than
this theology… </span></font>

Lastly, you say it doesn’t matter
if we as mortals can’t figure all this out That goes against John
17:3 which sta

[S2LR]

I have found over the years that if you have three different people read the same verse in the Bible, you can get three different explanations, thus different religions. Unlike a mathmatical problem ( 2+2=4, 6x8=48 etc. ), that has hard facts, interpretation of the written word can and will differ. Then you have to figure in that the Bible was written by a "MAN". Believe in GOD, yes I do.But do you have to believe a MAN If a story is started by one person, by the time it is retold 100 times, it will be a different version of the original story. And you have to account for the different versions of the Bible. So, this debatecan not and will not be finalized. But at the same time, disscusion and debateCAN be a good thing. Look at it this way. Not everyone rides the same make of bike. Not everyone rides for the same reason. How do you define theONLY bike Just some food for thought. At the very least these disscusions exercise the mind. And that is a good thing. Enough of my rambling. By the time we REALLY know the answer to this age old debate, we won't be able to tell the others, due to the fact we will be dead and gone. THAT'S WHY ITS CALLED FAITH</font>

Interesting input, however, I believe that truth, whatever it may be, stands independent of one's interpretation. There are questions of fact, questions of logic, and questions of value. The latter two can't really be resolved but I believe that the Bible brings up several questions of fact that are important in revealed religion. For example, what kind of a being is God If you believe in such a being, this is a question of fact that must have an answer. God's personage, attributes, and character stand as an independent truth. On this wise, there has to be one correct interpretation that aligns itself with that truth...

With regards to faith, faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things. If you have faith in something, you hope for things which are not seen but which are TRUE...
</font>

[Gatormaker]

All living things have a Spark of Energy/Life...asI know it...


I was in a accident many years ago...I was in a room and watched the attendents work on my body...I was not in it...I was slowly backing away from my body... and felt a desire to see where I was going...there was no body... I was a piece of Energy that was being drawn to a source...It was so peacefull... no Pain, as I was injured, I felt as thou I could move at the Speed of Thought...


I don't know about Heaven or Hell....but i'm not afraid of passing on...I don't have a Death Wish...I just have a great Courisity for what I didn't get to witness..





JD

[sporty91]

Sin follows the mans seed that is why Jesus was able to be sinless from birth, the neened chromaziones[sp] 26 from eachparent the26 from Mary carried no sin the other 26 came from the Holy Spirit with no sin in them. Toexplain why the sin follows the male seed we need to go back to the fall of man. Eve ate first and nothing happened however when Adam ate them both knew they were naked. The covanet was not with Eve but Adam, The female seed carries no sin so Jesus was able to be born of a woman and still be sinless. I do belive people learn how to be more evil but the sin is born into all of us. I have a new grandson he will cry when nothing is wrong just tp see if you will pick him up so the lies have already started.As if there was nothing wrong he should not cry. [Please don't jump on me for using him as a example I love him and pick him up even when hes fibbing!] Hope this helps. Have a blessed day.


[/QUOTE]


You've got to be freakingkidding me, right Thisreads like some acid trip gone bad. From the top: I am using the term "depraved" synonymous with the doctrine of "original sin". It is actually called "Heredity total Depravity".


1-If one is estranged from God by the mere fact of conception, and hence enters the world that way, how could one TURN ASIDE from the Lord (Rom 3:12);how could we all "LIKE SHEEP GONE ASTRAY (Isa. 53:6) If one is born astray, he cannot go astray! Furthermore, if a person is born totally depraved as you claim, how do evil men become worse and worse(2 Tim. 3: 13)


2-The Bible teaches that the practice of either good or evil is a matter of choice (Isa7: 15,16), not freaking chance!


3- We will not stand before God to be judged on the basis of an evil nature inherited from Adam, but rather for our own personal deeds will we give an accounting (2 Cor. 5:10; Rom. 14:12)


4-The Bible does not view little children as totally corrupt sinners, but instead they are consistently held up as models for the rest of us to emulate. Your Bible, Sporty, says in Matt 19: 14, "But Jesus said, suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for such is the kingdom of HEAVEN." Itsure doesn't sound like kids are sinful to me, and that's your ownBible talking fella. Can one imagine that Christ meant to admonish, "Except yeturn and become as a LITTLE DEPRAVED CHILD, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" No, he constantly admonished us all to be as littlechildren. The doctrine of originalsin is a doctrine of demons, ifyou believe in them. Pick up thatgrandsonof yours andcomfort him because his brain is still developing andhesignals hisphysical and emotional needs by crying, instead ofinterpreting his cries as the "lies beginning."


You need to summon your "Spiritual Bretheren" because you are being slaughtered, unless of course RED has already jumped from the burning ship. I thought you guys supported each other like Timothy and Titus and Saul and Barnabus etc.


[/QUOTE]


Did you read all of my post I have used the same child like faith quote. The bible also says we are concived in sin. Again the sin follows the mans seed not the womans. I am not being slaughtered at all. When is the last time you had to teach a child to be bad You don't that is already in them,they may learn to be worse but you never have to teach them to be bad! You have to teach they to be good.The faith has to be as a childs not the actions! The compairson is to a childs faith if the father of a child tells himto jump into the fathers arms from say a ladder or into a swimming pool when the child can't swim he jumps to the father because he belives the father will keep him safe. The bible also says ICorinthians 13:11 " when I was a child,

[Hebephrenia]

JD,


This is what I started talking about earlier---a "near death experience" is usually explained by the hypoxic brain starved of oxygen. Almost universally, hypoxia usually leads to some element of "peaceful" feelings or euphoria, andwhat is called "depersonalization"---the strange sense of detachment from one's body you describedabove. "Derealization" is also a component (feeling as if things aren't real). Both areactually more common than people think. I believe those that experience thesethen place this into a religous framework, hence the phenomenological experience of being drawn toward a light,a glorious sense of peace,etc.


For me, this life is it. Don't know what's on the other side---but it better have two wheels to ride.smileys/dance2.gif


RED, I'm going to try and put some of "the word"you speak of in my gas tank. Is it better than C-44 Satan is a myth and a scapegoat used by the weak minded to blame all their poor decisions on----Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and the myriad of pedophiles masquerading as men of cloth arethe poster children. Long live the here and now! I did put my hand on the TV screen once when asked by Robert Tilton as he blessed a prayer cloth in tongues. I didn't feel anything and didn't know what the H$#@ he was saying, but his deceived flocksent him hard earned money while he lives lavishly. People will believe anything since most are sheep---some of the dumbest animals on the planet.

[Hebephrenia]

I have found over the years that if you have three different people read the same verse in the Bible, you can get three different explanations, thus different religions. Unlike a mathmatical problem ( 2+2=4, 6x8=48 etc. ), that has hard facts, interpretation of the written word can and will differ. Then you have to figure in that the Bible was written by a "MAN". Believe in GOD, yes I do.But do you have to believe a MAN If a story is started by one person, by the time it is retold 100 times, it will be a different version of the original story. And you have to account for the different versions of the Bible. So, this debatecan not and will not be finalized. But at the same time, disscusion and debateCAN be a good thing. Look at it this way. Not everyone rides the same make of bike. Not everyone rides for the same reason. How do you define theONLY bike Just some food for thought. At the very least these disscusions exercise the mind. And that is a good thing. Enough of my rambling. By the time we REALLY know the answer to this age old debate, we won't be able to tell the others, due to the fact we will be dead and gone. THAT'S WHY ITS CALLED FAITH


BUT, Christ set up one Church, according to the Bible, complete with 12 apostles. Therewere even those who filled the void when an apostle was killed (James by the swordafter whichMathias was selected) to maintain the correct succession in the 12. There was, without a doubt, one true belief, and everyone can't be right currently. According to my reading of your Bible, there was one way taught, NOT 100 different ways. The scriptures say in Ephesians 4:5, ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, AND ONE BAPTISM! So, there should only be one true church on the face of the earth. Which is it Is itIslam Those who follow Buddha, or could it be the Moonies Maybe Heaven's Gate leader Marshall Applewhite was the real prophet when he led some 30 people to their deaths in San Diego back in the mid 90's---some premature man-induced "rapture". It could also be the Reverend Jim Jones who tooknear 800+ people to their deaths by drinking cyanide laced Koolaid. What's it going to be, Fletch, because your Bible definitely says there is one way....

[Hebephrenia]

Sporty 91, I am quoting your own book to demonstrate that you don't understand your own doctrine. You still haven't answered the question. Which church on earth is the true church of Christ All sorts of beliefs taught from the same book with dramatic differences in what it takes to gain salvation.Take baptism---immersion,sprinkling, or not at all Your Bible supports it being necessary for salvation with immersion as the method. Whichbaptism is right Come on, give it to me with the Bark on according to 1 Peter 3:15."Contend for the faith that was once delivered among the saints",otherwise step aside and yield to the discipline of your emotional conception of "belief".


Isn't anyone going to take on S2LR's masterful argument regarding the Godhead My guess is that people are using the most "new age" version of the Bible that conveniently eliminates important doctrine.

[hwrogers]

ok hebephrenia... you are confused, the reason for so many varied interpretations is because their are so many different people, everyone needs something different, kind of like why are their so many types of food, everyone needs different nourishment, both spiritually and physicaly. that said you probly also need to stop taking every word for exact face value, the water of babtism is not water as we drink every day, but the blood and spiritof christ, what is acted out at the altar is only symbolic, i could blast you with a fire hose and have no more or less effect than some priest flicking his wet fingers at you, the physical act of babtism is not needed, you simply need to accept christ, and he will accept you, their are a few rules to maintain your end of the bargain but it can't be denied that they are good rules to live by... anyhow next point...


yourself and s2lr seem to have both made one common mistake... you have both overcomplicated the word of the bible, you want proof, i ask you to prove it wrong, and at the very least it would be wise to take advise from those bumper stickers that say "i'd rather live like their is a god, and die to find their isn't, than live like their isn't a god, and die to find their is" so live a good life and try to help someone once in a while, it isn't hard and if you stop worriing about these extremist details and bullcrap you're throwing around and relax, you may find that in fact very little is fact, leave the worry to god, or just leave it, i don't really care what you choose, i chose christ, do as you please...

[hwrogers]

So, with all this talk about God, it brings me to wonder.



Why did he create Hondas





semi final salvation for yamaha's





ouch, i dont race my yammie but that still hurt...smileys/smiley11.gif

[S2LR]

ok hebephrenia... you are confused, the reason for so many varied interpretations is because their are so many different people, everyone needs something different, kind of like why are their so many types of food, everyone needs different nourishment, both spiritually and physicaly. that said you probly also need to stop taking every word for exact face value, the water of babtism is not water as we drink every day, but the blood and spiritof christ, what is acted out at the altar is only symbolic, i could blast you with a fire hose and have no more or less effect than some priest flicking his wet fingers at you, the physical act of babtism is not needed, you simply need to accept christ, and he will accept you, their are a few rules to maintain your end of the bargain but it can't be denied that they are good rules to live by... anyhow next point...


yourself and s2lr seem to have both made one common mistake... you have both overcomplicated the word of the bible, you want proof, i ask you to prove it wrong, and at the very least it would be wise to take advise from those bumper stickers that say "i'd rather live like their is a god, and die to find their isn't, than live like their isn't a god, and die to find their is" so live a good life and try to help someone once in a while, it isn't hard and if you stop worriing about these extremist details and bullcrap you're throwing around and relax, you may find that in fact very little is fact, leave the worry to god, or just leave it, i don't really care what you choose, i chose christ, do as you please...

I suppose that "common mistake" then has also been made by the thousand different Christian religions that currently exist, all claiming to be the holders of truth as taught in the Bible.

I would argue that you and others have oversimplified what the Bible teaches. Yes, the difficulty is in the details but so is the TRUTH. It's always easier to take the path of least resistance and sweep the details and truth under the rug and move on. But this is so much fun isn't it

Now let's get back to some points you bring up. Please explain to me what it means to "accept" Christ You say all you have to do to obtain salvation is to accept Christ and believe in him. Yet in the very next sentence you imply that WORKS are involved by saying that there are rules we must keep to maintain our end of the bargain Are you suggesting that a person is no longer saved if he/she doesn't keep these so-called rules even though they accepted Christ on a particular date and time Can a person go from being saved to being unsaved If that's the case, then I suppose that they were never saved in the first place. Could it be that being saved is a process</span> rather than an event

In closing, you said that you really didn't care what Hebephrenia chose I think you do care or else you wouldn't have engaged yourself in this discussion. At any rate, it's good you've added your .02 (maybe .05)...smileys/smiley2.gif. It's more sauce for the goose...

BTW, just so we all have a reality check, remember this is the "Funny, Sick, and Twisted" forum. It's supposed to be fun (warped, misguided, misunderstood, etc.). A good spirited debate is always fun though...
</font>Edited by: S2LR

[sporty91]

ok hebephrenia... you are confused, the reason for so many varied interpretations is because their are so many different people, everyone needs something different, kind of like why are their so many types of food, everyone needs different nourishment, both spiritually and physicaly. that said you probly also need to stop taking every word for exact face value, the water of babtism is not water as we drink every day, but the blood and spiritof christ, what is acted out at the altar is only symbolic, i could blast you with a fire hose and have no more or less effect than some priest flicking his wet fingers at you, the physical act of babtism is not needed, you simply need to accept christ, and he will accept you, their are a few rules to maintain your end of the bargain but it can't be denied that they are good rules to live by... anyhow next point...


yourself and s2lr seem to have both made one common mistake... you have both overcomplicated the word of the bible, you want proof, i ask you to prove it wrong, and at the very least it would be wise to take advise from those bumper stickers that say "i'd rather live like their is a god, and die to find their isn't, than live like their isn't a god, and die to find their is" so live a good life and try to help someone once in a while, it isn't hard and if you stop worriing about these extremist details and bullcrap you're throwing around and relax, you may find that in fact very little is fact, leave the worry to god, or just leave it, i don't really care what you choose, i chose christ, do as you please...




I suppose that "common mistake" then has also been made by the thousand different Christian religions that currently exist, all claiming to be the holders of truth as taught in the Bible.

I would argue that you and others have oversimplified what the Bible teaches. Yes, the difficulty is in the details but so is the TRUTH. It's always easier to take the path of least resistance and sweep the details and truth under the rug and move on. But this is so much fun isn't it

Now let's get back to some points you bring up. Please explain to me what it means to "accept" Christ You say all you have to do to obtain salvation is to accept Christ and believe in him. Yet in the very next sentence you imply that WORKS are involved by saying that there are rules we must keep to maintain our end of the bargain Are you suggesting that a person is no longer saved if he/she doesn't keep these so-called rules even though they accepted Christ on a particular date and time Can a person go from being saved to being unsaved If that's the case, then I suppose that they were never saved in the first place. Could it be that being saved is a process rather than an event

In closing, you said that you really didn't care what Hebephrenia chose I think you do care or else you wouldn't have engaged yourself in this discussion. At any rate, it's good you've added your .02 (maybe .05)...smileys/smiley2.gif. It's more sauce for the goose...

BTW, just so we all have a reality check, remember this is the "Funny, Sick, and Twisted" forum. It's supposed to be fun (warped, misguided, misunderstood, etc.). A good spirited debate is always fun though...



I am going to deal with the works in this post. I am putting something togetheron the other you asked about. Works after you are saved are done out of love for your saviour. ie... when you marry don't you do things for your wife because you love her would you do the same things for some one you did not know The works are done because you love him not to get salvation but because of salvation. You choose to follow Jesus and you can choose to not follow him, Demmus[sp] was a example of that as he choose the things of the world over his love of Jesus. I will get the chapter and verse later. As far as making it easy that was why Jesus took on flesh, th

[sporty91]

Sporty 91, I am quoting your own book to demonstrate that you don't understand your own doctrine. You still haven't answered the question. Which church on earth is the true church of Christ All sorts of beliefs taught from the same book with dramatic differences in what it takes to gain salvation.Take baptism---immersion,sprinkling, or not at all Your Bible supports it being necessary for salvation with immersion as the method. Whichbaptism is right Come on, give it to me with the Bark on according to 1 Peter 3:15."Contend for the faith that was once delivered among the saints",otherwise step aside and yield to the discipline of your emotional conception of "belief".


Isn't anyone going to take on S2LR's masterful argument regarding the Godhead My guess is that people are using the most "new age" version of the Bible that conveniently eliminates important doctrine.








On baptism I have already said it is good but not required for salvation and gave the theif on the cross with Jesus as an example. As Jesus himslef said he would be with him in pairdice[sp] that day! Any church that teaches the blood covering of Jesus will do as each different church will have some things right and some wrong. As long as you depend on Jesus for your salvation you will be alright. The Godhead is not that hard to get, God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all the same God. Jesus is God with us in flesh. God the Father is in heaven it is his will that Jesus and the Holy Spirit follows. Now for the Holy Spirit he is on earth now Jesus sent him to earth to help us after he acended to heaven. To guide us in our lives. If you don't belive thats ok I would like to see you belive the truth, however you have the God given right to reject him. The difference in you reading the bible and a beliver reading the bible is to you it is just a book to us it is the living word of God. So I would never expect you to see it from a belivers point of view. Do I understand every thing in it NO &amp; no one person can. That is why we read it over and over and study it with other books such as a strongs concordance. The Holy Spirit you keep wanting me to explain helps the beliver to understand his word. Hope this helps and have a blessed day. BTW Here is what I peter 3:15 really says;
<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>1Pe 3:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=1Pe&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=15&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#15 )</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:</TD></TR></T></TABLE>


Soulds like I've got that covered.[b]Edited by: sporty91

[sporty91]

ok hebephrenia... you are confused, the reason for so many varied interpretations is because their are so many different people, everyone needs something different, kind of like why are their so many types of food, everyone needs different nourishment, both spiritually and physicaly. that said you probly also need to stop taking every word for exact face value, the water of babtism is not water as we drink every day, but the blood and spiritof christ, what is acted out at the altar is only symbolic, i could blast you with a fire hose and have no more or less effect than some priest flicking his wet fingers at you, the physical act of babtism is not needed, you simply need to accept christ, and he will accept you, their are a few rules to maintain your end of the bargain but it can't be denied that they are good rules to live by... anyhow next point...


yourself and s2lr seem to have both made one common mistake... you have both overcomplicated the word of the bible, you want proof, i ask you to prove it wrong, and at the very least it would be wise to take advise from those bumper stickers that say "i'd rather live like their is a god, and die to find their isn't, than live like their isn't a god, and die to find their is" so live a good life and try to help someone once in a while, it isn't hard and if you stop worriing about these extremist details and bullcrap you're throwing around and relax, you may find that in fact very little is fact, leave the worry to god, or just leave it, i don't really care what you choose, i chose christ, do as you please...





Well said brother! To much importanceput on what we must do and not enough on the gift Jesus gave us freely! Hope to meet you some day shoot me a pm and we will talk. Have a blessed day!

[Red,]

This has turned out to be a good thread . . .


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.

Team WandL Racing.

PMR components.

Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=sporty91]
I'm not discounting anything in the bible, again I say you have to read it for your self not to depend on any one person to tell you what to belive. You are a very smart person you have been able to bring out some very good points. Now use that to study the bible you have already been reading it, I can tell. Dig into the word seek him. This is one thing that is true, the thing is nothing you can do will help you get salvation. Jesus is the only way! He said so. Does it matter if we as mortals can't figure out every thing, the word says we see through a glass darkly. But on the other side everything will be made clear. We are made in Gods image yes he has a head arms legs and everything we have eyes ears ect.. God even let moses see his coat tails moses glowed for days. Don't know about the beard and allthe robe he has it talks about it in the bible.We have the same form as God. The trinty is one God with three persons we can't seprate our parts but we are not God. Here is one thing I can say for sure if you seek him you will find him. Look up Lee Stroble he has written a few books after finding Christ, He was athist[sp] trying to prove God was fake he sought him and found him! This is something each of us have to do own our own. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


Let me add one more thing the bible is a book written by at least 66 men inspired by the Holy spirit. The old testament points forward to Chirst the new testament points back to Christ. It is all good for rightious living. We all have different jobs the hands can't do the job of the feet and so on. The different churches will do the job that they are made for then in heaven we will be shown the perfect will of God. We as mortals could never understand all of it here even with the holy spirit. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.
Ok…so you concede that God is in the form of a man yet you still hold true to the Triune God concept…correct

<O:P></O:P>Based on this core belief, let’s examine this God theology a bit further. First off, I’m still waiting for you to explain to me what took place during Christ’s baptism regarding the three distinct entities that are clearly revealed. You also need to explain the incident where Stephen was being stoned and saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God� as given in Acts 7:55…yet again another manifestation of two distinct entities. How about John 14:16, 26 or John 16:7 in which the “Comforter� (i.e. the Holy Ghost) is clearly separated out from the other two members of the Godhead. <O:P></O:P>

Here’s another problem. Do you believe that Christ was resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone as given in Luke 24:39 If yes, then according to your beliefs, God the Father has a body also since they’re one and the same being. But wait…that can’t be…so…if they’re not one and the same being, who’s more perfected Christ with a resurrected body of flesh and bone or God as a personage of spirit Please explain Perhaps Christ dropped his body of flesh and bone off after he cleared the clouds during his ascension as given in Acts 1:11 to be absorbed into the God collective…but wait…that would imply that Christ died twice since de@th by definition is a separation of the spirit and body. Are we bewildered yet I think one would have better luck understanding the nuances of Schrodinger’s cat in quantum mechanics than this theology… <O:P></O:P>

Lastly, you say it doesn’t matter if we as mortals can’t figure all this out That goes against John 17:3 which states that it is eternal life to KNOW God and

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=sporty91]
I'm not discounting anything in the bible, again I say you have to read it for your self not to depend on any one person to tell you what to belive. You are a very smart person you have been able to bring out some very good points. Now use that to study the bible you have already been reading it, I can tell. Dig into the word seek him. This is one thing that is true, the thing is nothing you can do will help you get salvation. Jesus is the only way! He said so. Does it matter if we as mortals can't figure out every thing, the word says we see through a glass darkly. But on the other side everything will be made clear. We are made in Gods image yes he has a head arms legs and everything we have eyes ears ect.. God even let moses see his coat tails moses glowed for days. Don't know about the beard and allthe robe he has it talks about it in the bible.We have the same form as God. The trinty is one God with three persons we can't seprate our parts but we are not God. Here is one thing I can say for sure if you seek him you will find him. Look up Lee Stroble he has written a few books after finding Christ, He was athist[sp] trying to prove God was fake he sought him and found him! This is something each of us have to do own our own. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


Let me add one more thing the bible is a book written by at least 66 men inspired by the Holy spirit. The old testament points forward to Chirst the new testament points back to Christ. It is all good for rightious living. We all have different jobs the hands can't do the job of the feet and so on. The different churches will do the job that they are made for then in heaven we will be shown the perfect will of God. We as mortals could never understand all of it here even with the holy spirit. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.
Ok…so you concede that God is in the form of a man yet you still hold true to the Triune God concept…correct

<O:P></O:P>Based on this core belief, let’s examine this God theology a bit further. First off, I’m still waiting for you to explain to me what took place during Christ’s baptism regarding the three distinct entities that are clearly revealed. You also need to explain the incident where Stephen was being stoned and saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God� as given in Acts 7:55…yet again another manifestation of two distinct entities. How about John 14:16, 26 or John 16:7 in which the “Comforter� (i.e. the Holy Ghost) is clearly separated out from the other two members of the Godhead. <O:P></O:P>

Here’s another problem. Do you believe that Christ was resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone as given in Luke 24:39 If yes, then according to your beliefs, God the Father has a body also since they’re one and the same being. But wait…that can’t be…so…if they’re not one and the same being, who’s more perfected Christ with a resurrected body of flesh and bone or God as a personage of spirit Please explain Perhaps Christ dropped his body of flesh and bone off after he cleared the clouds during his ascension as given in Acts 1:11 to be absorbed into the God collective…but wait…that would imply that Christ died twice since de@th by definition is a separation of the spirit and body. Are we bewildered yet I think one would have better luck understanding the nuances of Schrodinger’s cat in quantum mechanics than this theology… <O:P></O:P>

Lastly, you say it doesn’t matter if we as mortals can’t figure all this out That goes against John 17:3 which states that it is eternal life to KNOW God and

[S2LR]

I am going to deal with the works in this post. I am putting something togetheron the other you asked about. Works after you are saved are done out of love for your saviour. ie... when you marry don't you do things for your wife because you love her would you do the same things for some one you did not know The works are done because you love him not to get salvation but because of salvation. You choose to follow Jesus and you can choose to not follow him, Demmus[sp] was a example of that as he choose the things of the world over his love of Jesus. I will get the chapter and verse later. As far as making it easy that was why Jesus took on flesh, the jewish church at that time had hundreds of comandments to follow. Jesus gave us 2 that if we follow makes us able to please God the father. After we accept Jesus we need to love the Father with all we have and then love our neighbor as ourselves. To accept Jesus you just have to belive he is the son of God lived a sinless life died to cover your sins and rose again to be at the right hand of the Father. You have to belive in your heart and confess with your mouth and you will be saved. Now if youthink you can do this one time and live like the the rest of your life, go ahead but I don't think thats what Jesus came to do. If someone lives likethey are single afterthey are married I would be willing to bet their spouse would not stay with them long. You can belive anyway you want, do I care yes, if I could take out of my heart what Jesus put in there so you could feel it you would have to have it, so yes I would like to see you have it also. The thing is till you look past trying to see a way for you to make yourself better or do something to earn salvation you will never be able to accept Jesus' free gift.Again seek him you will find him but you will have to put aside any thoughts of doing something to earn it. Hope this helps, and have a blessed day.



You still haven’t told me what it means to be “saved�…</span></font>





I find it interesting that you use a lot of metaphors (many
incorrectly) to support your doctrine and yet use hardly any scriptural verses
to support your beliefs. Please provide scriptural verses from now on. It will
give more credibility to your argument. If this is a religious debate, I would
expect you to use your Bible more proficiently…</span></font>





That being said, Let us follow your logic here a bit. You
claim that in order to be saved, you just need to confess with your mouth the
Lord Jesus and then you’re saved and nothing else matters…correct </span></font>





Ok…once I’m saved, why does loving God or loving
our neighbor even count You say we NEED to love God and our neighbor…why
I thought works didn’t matter. Why does any type of lifestyle matter once
you’re saved It sounds like once I punch my ticket into heavenly bliss
by saying “I believe�, I can eat, drink and be merry and still be
saved. Wow…what a sweet deal…almost too good to be true. Faith, repentance,
baptism, good works, etc. have all been rendered moot. The Bible, from what I’ve
read, paints a different picture (see below)…</span></font>





Next you’ll say that all Christians who accepted the
Lord Jesus with their mouths, are now living a Christ-life life. I’ve seen
an example of someone who at one time embraced Christianity, claimed to have
accepted Christ as their personal Savior, and then turn toward an agnostic view
after being schooled on some scientific thought that blew holes in his faith. He

[jackinzoar]

staging lanes or bar rooms ,,, thou shall not discuss politics or religion ,,,, delay boxes and throttle stops are the devils tools !!!! ,,, non electronics is next to godlinesssmileys/smiley2.gif

[S2LR]

Ok…so you concede that God is in the form of a man yet you still hold true to the Triune God concept…correct

</span></font>Based on this core belief, let’s examine this God theology a bit further. First off, I’m still waiting for you to explain to me what took place during Christ’s baptism regarding the three distinct entities that are clearly revealed. You also need to explain the incident where Stephen was being stoned and saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God� as given in Acts 7:55…yet again another manifestation of two distinct entities. How about John 14:16, 26 or John 16:7 in which the “Comforter� (i.e. the Holy Ghost) is clearly separated out from the other two members of the Godhead. </span></font>

Here’s another problem. Do you believe that Christ was resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone as given in Luke 24:39 If yes, then according to your beliefs, God the Father has a body also since they’re one and the same being. But wait…that can’t be…so…if they’re not one and the same being, who’s more perfected Christ with a resurrected body of flesh and bone or God as a personage of spirit Please explain Perhaps Christ dropped his body of flesh and bone off after he cleared the clouds during his ascension as given in Acts 1:11 to be absorbed into the God collective…but wait…that would imply that Christ died twice since de@th by definition is a separation of the spirit and body. Are we bewildered yet I think one would have better luck understanding the nuances of Schrodinger’s cat in quantum mechanics than this theology… </span></font>

Lastly, you say it doesn’t matter if we as mortals can’t figure all this out That goes against John 17:3 which states that it is eternal life to KNOW God and Christ…yet again another verse which separates God and Christ into two distinct entities.</span></font>
I said I was working on something this site has some very good answers to the questions you ask I will give you this link. Read carefully what the site says than compair it to the bible. Hope this helps, have a blessed day. http://www.cbnindia.org/200Questions/article.phptopic=1#13 (http://www.cbnindia.org/200Questi&#111;ns/article.phptopic=1#13)



In an
earlier post, you claimed to believe in the Triune God (i.e. they’re one
being) but now you’re dividing them up. Which is it Are they all one being
or are they separate This is a question of fact that you need to address. If
Jesus SENT the Holy Spirit to earth, did Jesus send himself Where was God the
Father when Christ was upon the earth during his mortal ministry Was he in
heaven or was he absorbed into Christ If he was part of Christ, how do you
explain Matt 16:17 If the Father and the Son are one being, did Christ pray to
himself while in the <st1:place w:st="&#111;n"><st1:place w:st="&#111;n">Garden</st1:place>
of <st1:placename w:st="&#111;n">Gethsemane</st1:placename></st1:place> as given in
Matt 26:39 Do they come together and then separate at will when the occasion requires it I don't think the Bible teaches this...</span></font>
</span></font>

I read your link and it basically supports what the Bible
appears to teach…that they are separate and distinct personages that
function as one in PU

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=sporty91]


I am going to deal with the works in this post. I am putting something togetheron the other you asked about. Works after you are saved are done out of love for your saviour. ie... when you marry don't you do things for your wife because you love her would you do the same things for some one you did not know The works are done because you love him not to get salvation but because of salvation. You choose to follow Jesus and you can choose to not follow him, Demmus[sp] was a example of that as he choose the things of the world over his love of Jesus. I will get the chapter and verse later. As far as making it easy that was why Jesus took on flesh, the jewish church at that time had hundreds of comandments to follow. Jesus gave us 2 that if we follow makes us able to please God the father. After we accept Jesus we need to love the Father with all we have and then love our neighbor as ourselves. To accept Jesus you just have to belive he is the son of God lived a sinless life died to cover your sins and rose again to be at the right hand of the Father. You have to belive in your heart and confess with your mouth and you will be saved. Now if youthink you can do this one time and live like the the rest of your life, go ahead but I don't think thats what Jesus came to do. If someone lives likethey are single afterthey are married I would be willing to bet their spouse would not stay with them long. You can belive anyway you want, do I care yes, if I could take out of my heart what Jesus put in there so you could feel it you would have to have it, so yes I would like to see you have it also. The thing is till you look past trying to see a way for you to make yourself better or do something to earn salvation you will never be able to accept Jesus' free gift.Again seek him you will find him but you will have to put aside any thoughts of doing something to earn it. Hope this helps, and have a blessed day.




You still haven’t told me what it means to be “saved�…<O:P></O:P>


I find it interesting that you use a lot of metaphors (many incorrectly) to support your doctrine and yet use hardly any scriptural verses to support your beliefs. Please provide scriptural verses from now on. It will give more credibility to your argument. If this is a religious debate, I would expect you to use your Bible more proficiently…<O:P></O:P>


That being said, Let us follow your logic here a bit. You claim that in order to be saved, you just need to confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and then you’re saved and nothing else matters…correct <O:P></O:P>


Ok…once I’m saved, why does loving God or loving our neighbor even count You say we NEED to love God and our neighbor…why I thought works didn’t matter. Why does any type of lifestyle matter once you’re saved It sounds like once I punch my ticket into heavenly bliss by saying “I believe�, I can eat, drink and be merry and still be saved. Wow…what a sweet deal…almost too good to be true. Faith, repentance, baptism, good works, etc. have all been rendered moot. The Bible, from what I’ve read, paints a different picture (see below)…<O:P></O:P>


<O:P></O:P>Next you’ll say that all Christians who accepted the Lord Jesus with their mouths, are now living a Christ-life life. I’ve seen an example of someone who at one time embraced Christianity, claimed to have accepted Christ as their personal Savior, and then turn toward an agnostic view after being schooled on some scientific thought that blew holes in his faith. He no longer believes in any religious persuasion. My que

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=S2LR]
Ok…so you concede that God is in the form of a man yet you still hold true to the Triune God concept…correct

<O:P></O:P>Based on this core belief, let’s examine this God theology a bit further. First off, I’m still waiting for you to explain to me what took place during Christ’s baptism regarding the three distinct entities that are clearly revealed. You also need to explain the incident where Stephen was being stoned and saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God� as given in Acts 7:55…yet again another manifestation of two distinct entities. How about John 14:16, 26 or John 16:7 in which the “Comforter� (i.e. the Holy Ghost) is clearly separated out from the other two members of the Godhead. <O:P></O:P>

Here’s another problem. Do you believe that Christ was resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone as given in Luke 24:39 If yes, then according to your beliefs, God the Father has a body also since they’re one and the same being. But wait…that can’t be…so…if they’re not one and the same being, who’s more perfected Christ with a resurrected body of flesh and bone or God as a personage of spirit Please explain Perhaps Christ dropped his body of flesh and bone off after he cleared the clouds during his ascension as given in Acts 1:11 to be absorbed into the God collective…but wait…that would imply that Christ died twice since de@th by definition is a separation of the spirit and body. Are we bewildered yet I think one would have better luck understanding the nuances of Schrodinger’s cat in quantum mechanics than this theology… <O:P></O:P>

Lastly, you say it doesn’t matter if we as mortals can’t figure all this out That goes against John 17:3 which states that it is eternal life to KNOW God and Christ…yet again another verse which separates God and Christ into two distinct entities.
I said I was working on something this site has some very good answers to the questions you ask I will give you this link. Read carefully what the site says than compair it to the bible. Hope this helps, have a blessed day. http://www.cbnindia.org/200Questions/article.phptopic=1#13 (http://www.cbnindia.org/200Questi&#111;ns/article.phptopic=1#13)




In an earlier post, you claimed to believe in the Triune God (i.e. they’re one being) but now you’re dividing them up. Which is it Are they all one being or are they separate This is a question of fact that you need to address. If Jesus SENT the Holy Spirit to earth, did Jesus send himself Where was God the Father when Christ was upon the earth during his mortal ministry Was he in heaven or was he absorbed into Christ If he was part of Christ, how do you explain Matt 16:17 If the Father and the Son are one being, did Christ pray to himself while in the <ST1:PLACE w:st="&#111;n"><ST1:PLACE w:st="&#111;n">Garden</ST1:PLACE> of <ST1:PLACENAME w:st="&#111;n">Gethsemane</ST1:PLACENAME></ST1:PLACE> as given in Matt 26:39 Do they come together and then separate at will when the occasion requires it I don't think the Bible teaches this...



I read your link and it basically supports what the Bible appears to teach…that they are separate and distinct personages that function as one in PURPOSE not substance. I agree with this completely. This is

[jackinzoar]

god loves dragbikers ,, why else would we spend more to get paid less ,,, nhra is the devil , why else would our children be excluded from racing

[Jagdpanzer]

Unfortunately, or not, all of you are wrong.


God is a dun cladyoung man carrying a M16 down a dark street in Awnbar province


Because God is a warrior.


cp

[sporty91]

Unfortunately, or not, all of you are wrong.


God is a dun cladyoung man carrying a M16 down a dark street in Awnbar province


Because God is a warrior.


cp





Naw, But I sure pray God is with every one of our men &amp; women Fighting to keep us free and safe! God bless every one of you!!!!

[Gatormaker]

I think we have been splitting the same hair in different ways, The Trinity is most asuredly three being with one purpose. My point is God the Father, Son &amp; holy Spirit all work together. Jesus and the Holy Spirirt do the will of God the Father.They are one in thought and will and spirit. could they be one in substance The bible does not say they can't and with God being soverign and all I would say thats up to him.


This is where the thing that happened to me makes me think that we are of the same Energy thatI felt...


Evil only exists If we let it...





JD

[Jagdpanzer]

Unfortunately, or not, all of you are wrong.


God is a dun cladyoung man carrying a M16 down a dark street in Awnbar province


Because God is a warrior.


cp





Naw, But I sure pray God is with every one of our men &amp; women Fighting to keep us free and safe! God bless every one of you!!!!





You obviously haven't read the end of the book!

[Hebephrenia]

ok hebephrenia... you are confused, the reason for so many varied interpretations is because their are so many different people, everyone needs something different, kind of like why are their so many types of food, everyone needs different nourishment, both spiritually and physicaly. that said you probly also need to stop taking every word for exact face value, the water of babtism is not water as we drink every day, but the blood and spiritof christ, what is acted out at the altar is only symbolic, i could blast you with a fire hose and have no more or less effect than some priest flicking his wet fingers at you, the physical act of babtism is not needed, you simply need to accept christ, and he will accept you, their are a few rules to maintain your end of the bargain but it can't be denied that they are good rules to live by... anyhow next point...


yourself and s2lr seem to have both made one common mistake... you have both overcomplicated the word of the bible, you want proof, i ask you to prove it wrong, and at the very least it would be wise to take advise from those bumper stickers that say "i'd rather live like their is a god, and die to find their isn't, than live like their isn't a god, and die to find their is" so live a good life and try to help someone once in a while, it isn't hard and if you stop worriing about these extremist details and bullcrap you're throwing around and relax, you may find that in fact very little is fact, leave the worry to god, or just leave it, i don't really care what you choose, i chose christ, do as you please...





Extremist details Bullcrap That'sinteresting since I've done nothing but quoteYOUR own Bible. Remember, I can't be an extremist because I'm not a believer! Now, to dismantle your argument above regarding the necessity of Baptism:


1- Baptism is necessary for salvation because CHRIST said so.In the great commission (Mark 16:16; Matt 28: 19-20) "He that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved" Are you going to argue the point If it isn't necessary for salvation, then Jesus didn't mean what he said. Christ himself was baptized by John. Why To "Fulfill ALL righteousness". If he, being sinless was baptized there was a reason---he set the example to follow. And he was baptized by immersion.


2-Baptism is for the remission of sins: On the day of Pentecost, Peter instructed the believers to "Repent and beBAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins....(Acts 2: 38)..."Then they that gladly received his word were BAPTIZED....vs 41. On the road to Damascus, Saul was visited of the Lord. He tells Saul to "arise and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou MUST do" (Acts 9:6) What MUST he do Ananias tells him, "arise and be BAPTIZED, and wash away they sins" (Acts 22:16, 9:18) It appears that baptism was good enough for Paul, doesn't it Was the jailor saved in Acts 16:30-31 Many claim this to be the plan of salvation, but read on to vs 33....."And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was BAPTIZED, he and all his, straightway." Was the Etheopian Eunuch saved when he exclaimed, "I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God" This was certainly a mouth confession, but once again, read on to vs 38......"And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the WATER, both Phillip and the eunuch; and he BAPTIZED him." Check out the conversion of Cornelius and the Gentiles (Acts 10-47-48)...."Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we And he commanded them to beBAPTIZED in the name of the lord."


3-We are baptized into Christ:Since all spiritual blessings are in Christ (Eph 1:3) and redemption through is blood is in Christ (Eph 1:7), and salvation is in Christ (2 Tim

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=hwrogers]


ok hebephrenia... you are confused, the reason for so many varied interpretations is because their are so many different people, everyone needs something different, kind of like why are their so many types of food, everyone needs different nourishment, both spiritually and physicaly. that said you probly also need to stop taking every word for exact face value, the water of babtism is not water as we drink every day, but the blood and spiritof christ, what is acted out at the altar is only symbolic, i could blast you with a fire hose and have no more or less effect than some priest flicking his wet fingers at you, the physical act of babtism is not needed, you simply need to accept christ, and he will accept you, their are a few rules to maintain your end of the bargain but it can't be denied that they are good rules to live by... anyhow next point...


yourself and s2lr seem to have both made one common mistake... you have both overcomplicated the word of the bible, you want proof, i ask you to prove it wrong, and at the very least it would be wise to take advise from those bumper stickers that say "i'd rather live like their is a god, and die to find their isn't, than live like their isn't a god, and die to find their is" so live a good life and try to help someone once in a while, it isn't hard and if you stop worriing about these extremist details and bullcrap you're throwing around and relax, you may find that in fact very little is fact, leave the worry to god, or just leave it, i don't really care what you choose, i chose christ, do as you please...





Extremist details Bullcrap That'sinteresting since I've done nothing but quoteYOUR own Bible. Remember, I can't be an extremist because I'm not a believer! Now, to dismantle your argument above regarding the necessity of Baptism:


1- Baptism is necessary for salvation because CHRIST said so.In the great commission (Mark 16:16; Matt 28: 19-20) "He that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved" Are you going to argue the point If it isn't necessary for salvation, then Jesus didn't mean what he said. Christ himself was baptized by John. Why To "Fulfill ALL righteousness". If he, being sinless was baptized there was a reason---he set the example to follow. And he was baptized by immersion.


2-Baptism is for the remission of sins: On the day of Pentecost, Peter instructed the believers to "Repent and beBAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins....(Acts 2: 38)..."Then they that gladly received his word were BAPTIZED....vs 41. On the road to Damascus, Saul was visited of the Lord. He tells Saul to "arise and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou MUST do" (Acts 9:6) What MUST he do Ananias tells him, "arise and be BAPTIZED, and wash away they sins" (Acts 22:16, 9:18) It appears that baptism was good enough for Paul, doesn't it Was the jailor saved in Acts 16:30-31 Many claim this to be the plan of salvation, but read on to vs 33....."And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was BAPTIZED, he and all his, straightway." Was the Etheopian Eunuch saved when he exclaimed, "I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God" This was certainly a mouth confession, but once again, read on to vs 38......"And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the WATER, both Phillip and the eunuch; and he BAPTIZED him." Check out the conversion of Cornelius and the Gentiles (Acts 10-47-48)...."Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we And he commanded them to beBAPTIZED in the name of the lord."


3-We are baptized into Christ:Since all spiritual blessings are in Christ (Eph 1:3) and redemption through is blood is in Christ (Eph 1:7), and salvation

[sporty91]

Unfortunately, or not, all of you are wrong.


God is a dun cladyoung man carrying a M16 down a dark street in Awnbar province


Because God is a warrior.


cp





Naw, But I sure pray God is with every one of our men &amp; women Fighting to keep us free and safe! God bless every one of you!!!!





You obviously haven't read the end of the book!





Did not say he was not a warrior just that he does not have a m16. Yes I have read the end of the bible we win!

<TABLE><T><T><T>
<T>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD ="v-ref"><NOBR></NOBR></TD>
<TD ="v-">
</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD ="v-ref"><NOBR></NOBR></TD>
<TD ="v-">
</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD ="v-ref"><NOBR></NOBR></TD>
<TD ="v-">
</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD ="v-ref"><NOBR></NOBR></TD>
<TD ="v-">
</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD ="v-ref"><NOBR>Luk 23:43</NOBR></TD>
<TD ="v-">
And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."</TD></TR></T></T></T></T></TABLE>








They were going to Indy

[Hebephrenia]

smileys/banghead.gif

[Hebephrenia]

Sporty91, I just couldn't resist one more post since you have continually hung your hat on the thief as your anchor point for everything. BUT, there's more! True, Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in Paradise, but three days later he told Mary, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my father" (John 20:17), which we can also assume is where heaven is(Luke 24:51, John 20:17). Bummer for you. Evidently Paradise and heaven are two different places. A careful reading of YOUR Bible indicates that there is a spirit Prison and a Spirit Paradise---neither of which is where God dwells, and the thief went to paradise.So he wasn'tfully saved after all!Your whole argument collapses. Read 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3: 19. Gosh, it's got to suck when you can't explain things.BTW: I'm using the King James Version of the Bible, but as I thought, yours is some new fangled translation that perverts the original.


This has been great, but all good things must come to an end. After all, there are still people that believe the earth is flat, but that doesn't mean it is. You just can't convince some despite the evidence. As you would say, "have a blessed day". I am glad you survived your MC crash---that would cause anyone to turn to God.


Now, where did evil come from It isn't here yet, but it may be in 2008 when Hillary Clinton becomes our next president!!!!smileys/smiley11.gif Okay Jack, let er rip!!

[hwrogers]

smileys/banghead.gif


...


who's got the dull sword...


i apperantly have not studied the bible in as much detail as you have, but again i will say the liquid water as we would drink is not the water of true babtism, it is the holy spirit and blood of christ, the babtism thing is moot as it is taken as a given when one accepts christ as the lord god, not when a representative splashes you with drinking water...


and on the issue of what is required to keep salvation it is simple, turn away from sin, love god, and accept christ's gift. is anyone condemmed for stumbling back into sin not by any means, ask forgiveness, and forgive others, it is discouraged to live in sin, but it does not mean you're going to hell, you simply need to have a chat with god (i.e. PRAY) and ask forgiveness, you're too worried about the extreme details (you're calling it fact and doctrinal base) and demand that god be proven, he is proven, go outside and if you're in town go out to the mountains and smell the fresh air, and consider what is by evolutionist theory to be such an extremely circumstantial event that brought about life... these molecules just happened to allign themselves together to form a cellular life form without encouragement bullcrap


also you say you're using the king james version because the other versions are perverted versions of the original dude king james commisioned the translation of the king james version from the ORIGINAL hebrew latin and aramaic texts, history shows us that few kings can be trusted to stay true to the word (any other the THE king please give example) and so the king james version cannot be taken as true, mostly accurate at best, the living and new international versions are most directly translated to english words and grammar, wich will be flawed as is inevitable, but less flawed than the translation consigned by a king of men, after all a king is a politician, do you trust any politicians then why a king

[hwrogers]

oh, and those verses in 1peter would imply that those who died before christ came were allowed a chance to have eternal life, as for the prison thing i'll have to get back with you on that, good thing you brought it up though we had a discussion in bible study a couple weeks ago on just about the exact topic... thanks

[sporty91]

Sporty91, I just couldn't resist one more post since you have continually hung your hat on the thief as your anchor point for everything. BUT, there's more! True, Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in Paradise, but three days later he told Mary, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my father" (John 20:17), which we can also assume is where heaven is(Luke 24:51, John 20:17). Bummer for you. Evidently Paradise and heaven are two different places. A careful reading of YOUR Bible indicates that there is a spirit Prison and a Spirit Paradise---neither of which is where God dwells, and the thief went to paradise.So he wasn'tfully saved after all!Your whole argument collapses. Read 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3: 19. Gosh, it's got to suck when you can't explain things.BTW: I'm using the King James Version of the Bible, but as I thought, yours is some new fangled translation that perverts the original.


This has been great, but all good things must come to an end. After all, there are still people that believe the earth is flat, but that doesn't mean it is. You just can't convince some despite the evidence. As you would say, "have a blessed day". I am glad you survived your MC crash---that would cause anyone to turn to God.


Now, where did evil come from It isn't here yet, but it may be in 2008 when Hillary Clinton becomes our next president!!!!smileys/smiley11.gif Okay Jack, let er rip!!






<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>2Cr 5:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=2Cr&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=6&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#6)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=7></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/2Cr/5/7.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=2Cr&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=7&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#7)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=2Cr&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=7&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#7)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_hymns9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/images.plbook=2Cr&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=7&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#7) http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=2Cr&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=7&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV# 7)<A title="Dicti&#111;nary Aids" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=2Cr&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=7&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#7" target="_blank"><IMG height=17 alt="Dicti&#111;nary Aids" hspace=1 src="http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.

[Jagdpanzer]

<H4>Va. Parishes Split From Episcopal Church</H4>
<H5>By MATTHEW BARAKAT, Associated Press Writer</H5>

< =text/>document.write(getElapsed("20061217T182534Z"));
2 hours ago<NO></NO>


FAIRFAX, Va. - Two of the largest Episcopal parishes in Virginia voted overwhelmingly Sunday to break from The Episcopal Church and join fellow Anglican conservatives forming a rival U.S. denomination.


Truro Church in Fairfax and The Falls Church in Falls Church plan to place themselves under the leadership of Anglican Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria, who has called the growing acceptance of gay relationships a "satanic attack" on the church.


The archbishop hopes to create a U.S. alliance of disaffected parishes called the Convocation of Anglicans in North America. Truro rector Martyn Minns was consecrated a bishop in the Church of Nigeria earlier this year to lead Akinola's American outreach.


Ninety percent of Falls Church parishioners and 92 percent of Truro members who cast ballots in the last week supported cutting ties with The Episcopal Church, parish leaders said Sunday.


Six other Virginia parishes are voting this month whether to leave.


The Truro and Falls Church break is likely to spark a lengthy, expensive legal fight over the historic properties, which are worth millions of dollars.


The Episcopal Church, the U.S. wing of global Anglicanism, has been under pressure from traditionalists at home and abroad since the 2003 consecration of the first openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire.


Back to the subject at hand Where did this evil come from


who's right who's wrong dose it matter


cp

[hwrogers]

hmmm.. i think that's more on the political side than religious.. i'm not touching that (personally i disagree with both churches in that matter, but i'm not affected by it so i'll keep my mouth shut)


now let's keep this irrelavent stuff out and back to the debate on evil and from whence it came...

[NUTZ]

perhaps where it came from is not as important as WHERE IT IS. And do we really know how to detect it and seperate ourselves from it. Things that make ya go mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Gatormaker]

I think we have been splitting the same hair in different ways, The Trinity is most asuredly three being with one purpose. My point is God the Father, Son &amp; holy Spirit all work together. Jesus and the Holy Spirirt do the will of God the Father.They are one in thought and will and spirit. could they be one in substance The bible does not say they can't and with God being soverign and all I would say thats up to him.


This is where the thing that happened to me makes me think that we are of the same Energy thatI felt...


Evil only exists If we let it...





JD








JD

[Jagdpanzer]

hmmm.. i think that's more on the political side than religious.. i'm not touching that (personally i disagree with both churches in that matter, but i'm not affected by it so i'll keep my mouth shut)


now let's keep this irrelavent stuff out and back to the debate on evil and from whence it came...





Well you had nothing to say so you made nothing up into words and posted it. preciate the insight.smileys/smiley17.gif


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

On the other hand Gator has something to say but seems disinclined to say it.


cp

[hwrogers]

what i was saying was that the snippet about the two churches in virginia is not really on topic, and i'm drawing blanks on the evil and from whence it came debate atm because it became a does god exist debate with a supposed athiest who knows how to quote more scripture than probly even my pastor, along with jack's intermingled bits of nonsense... gotta get myself back on the topic at hand, anyhow i'm gonna play some games for the night, see ya'll tomorrow

[Gatormaker]

On the other hand Gator has something to say but seems disinclined to say it.


cp





smileys/smiley3.gif


Kant you reed...





JD

[jackinzoar]

my nonsence LoL ,,, welcome to "dragbike" !!

[hwrogers]

not complaining on the nonsense, but it was a contributing factor leading this debate off topic, and it's now too darn late to be up at the computer...

[jackinzoar]

I guess my idea of "nonsence" as far as DRAGBIKE is concerned would be a debate about steel vs titanium shoe for flat track ,, atleast it would involve 2 wheels !

[Hebephrenia]

What's the operational definition of evil we are working with here Is it bad deeds done by bad men/women Does evilimply that it is influencedby this so called Satan Come on, throw me a bone. Someone define it so we can get at it. If it's about the devil, I'm out! Let's here it, HW.

[sporty91]

What's the operational definition of evil we are working with here Is it bad deeds done by bad men/women Does evilimply that it is influencedby this so called Satan Come on, throw me a bone. Someone define it so we can get at it. If it's about the devil, I'm out! Let's here it, HW.


The conception of evil is what we are talking about the bible shows it comming from the rebelion of Lucifer. Gods greatest work at that time. I like the explaination of the first post, as we can only mesaure cold down to -460 degrees below zero. Yet we can mesaure the heat on the surface of the sun. What say you

[Hebephrenia]

Heat Cold What does this have to do with evil Let's take satan out of the equation and then talk about why people do crazy things to each other---Why people commit suicide or kill others etc. Why BAD things happen to good people. Is that all evil Otherwise, this isnothing more than the "devil made me do it" nonsense and this thread is done---anything that goes bad is blamed on satan. How convenient. Where is the tattered man of the cloth HW after taking his beating I want to hear about what he says about evil.

[jackinzoar]

time for Flip Wilson to chime in maybe

[hwrogers]

ok, not all bad events are evil, some are just nature taking it's course, katrina for example, and some are the results of true evil and hatred, 9-11 for example, and a lot of "misfurtunate circumstance" is simply god testing our faith, or as you may like to sayis just sh*tty luck...


so we'll define the evil under debate as the "true evil and hatred" kind, skip storms and plans gone awry, the bible says, as was noted before, that the first evil was the rebelion of lucifer (call him any number of names you choose, as i recall there have been over some 2000 names made for him) and the "original sin" being adams eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge (no version of genesis i've heard actually specifies apple, interesting tidbit) and by genetic inheritance the inclination towards evil has been passed to every human since, and in family lines where more have followed there darker behavioural inclinations stronger and stronger inclinations have passed on and made some groups seem almost entirely evil, as they are left with little or no kindness within them, and so we get the crazy evil people we have to put up with today...


and btw i am no "man of the cloth", i'm just another soul stuck in this existance until god decides he has no more plans for me (he obviously has plans, or he'd've called me home long ago on so very many occassions... so many times i should've died and haven't, someone apperantly has plans that involve me living past as many things as i have...) i am just another sinful mechanic, and bent on doing thing's in a manner out of the ordinary... i try to live by the rules, but i'm not going to be a bible thumper (this thread is about evil, so the bible is involved, noone here is a bible thumper unless bringing this stuff up in another topic not haveing to do with such things...) anyhow i'm rambling now, and tomorrow i may have something to reply to again, gametime for now :P

[sporty91]

ok, not all bad events are evil, some are just nature taking it's course, katrina for example, and some are the results of true evil and hatred, 9-11 for example, and a lot of "misfurtunate circumstance" is simply god testing our faith, or as you may like to sayis just sh*tty luck...


so we'll define the evil under debate as the "true evil and hatred" kind, skip storms and plans gone awry, the bible says, as was noted before, that the first evil was the rebelion of lucifer (call him any number of names you choose, as i recall there have been over some 2000 names made for him) and the "original sin" being adams eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge (no version of genesis i've heard actually specifies apple, interesting tidbit) and by genetic inheritance the inclination towards evil has been passed to every human since, and in family lines where more have followed there darker behavioural inclinations stronger and stronger inclinations have passed on and made some groups seem almost entirely evil, as they are left with little or no kindness within them, and so we get the crazy evil people we have to put up with today...


and btw i am no "man of the cloth", i'm just another soul stuck in this existance until god decides he has no more plans for me (he obviously has plans, or he'd've called me home long ago on so very many occassions... so many times i should've died and haven't, someone apperantly has plans that involve me living past as many things as i have...) i am just another sinful mechanic, and bent on doing thing's in a manner out of the ordinary... i try to live by the rules, but i'm not going to be a bible thumper (this thread is about evil, so the bible is involved, noone here is a bible thumper unless bringing this stuff up in another topic not haveing to do with such things...) anyhow i'm rambling now, and tomorrow i may have something to reply to again, gametime for now :P





Very good answer, the thing I think about is the flood was used to wipe out mankind save Noah and his family. Now the reason given was mans constance thoughts of evil, as you have pointed out the world is in a downward spiral. How much longer do you think it will be till mankind is in the same boat. [pardon thepun]

[Jagdpanzer]

Very good answer, the thing I think about is the flood was used to wipe out mankind save Noah and his family. Now the reason given was mans constance thoughts of evil, as you have pointed out the world is in a downward spiral. How much longer do you think it will be till mankind is in the same boat. [pardon thepun]





Well I have to take exception to this. Whypeople think this way is beyond me. the world is far from spiraling out of control. historically. speaking it is closer to world peace and globalization than it is ever been with the exception of Africa all countries are experiencing a rise in per capita income as well as better living standards. this plainly shows the back-wards thinking that is inherent in Churches; the sky is falling the sky is falling...we are the last generation Armageddon is just around the corner. old world mythological thinking is the cause of most of the remaining conflicts around the world. the rise of the Islamic state is an attempt to bring just such thinking to the governmental level and you can plainly see what this get them, they begin to seek enemies. this is a result of Zoroastrian dogma ie; the children of light against the the children of darkness. Christianity suffered from this for quite a few centuries until of course we outlawed it, and the west did so because we soon discovered that when you run out of enemies you turn on your own population, separating the bad from the good. Zoroastrianaroundabout 500 BC taught that the world world must be divided into believers and unbelievers and that having done that the unbelievers could beeradicated, leaving Paradise to be occupied by the well rewarded believers. this teaching caught hold in outliers of Jerusalem and gave rise to the sects that included the one Jesus came from. later on it was taken up by Mohamed and they plainly can not shake it, as you can quickly demise, about 70 yrs after the profits death and with no real way to establish dominance they turned against them selves dividing into shia and Sunni cleverly disguising the fact that almost all shia are in fact Persians not Arab at all so you begin to see thereal motivation behind religious doctrine. now we could easily do this examinationfor Christianity and the incidences are to many to recount, from the Jews and non Jews in the early churchonward to the Inquisition of the holy Roman empire to the the colonization and conversion of the reachable world under protestant Europe (Africa is still bleeding out from that little episode and will probably die from it.)


no offense to fundamentalist baptists but if they didn't buy their way into the conversation though charitable giving the would be quickly drummed out of any meaningful interaction with society.


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

At one point in this thread someone issued a challenge to prove thatthe bible is untrue. this of course can be easily done, now thatI think about it. if you recall from the 1960's an overwhelming number of Churches instituted a quasibook burning over a statement by John Lennon that the Beatles were more popular than Christ, and if you look at the the beliefs of fundamental Christianity these preachers were absolutely right. a no more hedonistic drug soaked abandon with the the ways of the flesh could hardly be brought to bear on American youth, at least at that time. yet very quickly the denominationswere faced with their own extinction and quickly recanted their hard line ways regardless of the bibles teachings.now it is quite common to hear Beatles songs use in the functions of church events. Revelation no. economics. If you threaten the collection plate you will see the most hard core fire and brimstone preacher flirting with homosexuals, thieves, gamblers and every kind of vice imaginable.The rationalizations are endless bordering on the retarded


cp

[sporty91]

Very good answer, the thing I think about is the flood was used to wipe out mankind save Noah and his family. Now the reason given was mans constance thoughts of evil, as you have pointed out the world is in a downward spiral. How much longer do you think it will be till mankind is in the same boat. [pardon thepun]





Well I have to take exception to this. Whypeople think this way is beyond me. the world is far from spiraling out of control. historically. speaking it is closer to world peace and globalization than it is ever been with the exception of Africa all countries are experiencing a rise in per capita income as well as better living standards. this plainly shows the back-wards thinking that is inherent in Churches; the sky is falling the sky is falling...we are the last generation Armageddon is just around the corner. old world mythological thinking is the cause of most of the remaining conflicts around the world. the rise of the Islamic state is an attempt to bring just such thinking to the governmental level and you can plainly see what this get them, they begin to seek enemies. this is a result of Zoroastrian dogma ie; the children of light against the the children of darkness. Christianity suffered from this for quite a few centuries until of course we outlawed it, and the west did so because we soon discovered that when you run out of enemies you turn on your own population, separating the bad from the good. Zoroastrianaroundabout 500 BC taught that the world world must be divided into believers and unbelievers and that having done that the unbelievers could beeradicated, leaving Paradise to be occupied by the well rewarded believers. this teaching caught hold in outliers of Jerusalem and gave rise to the sects that included the one Jesus came from. later on it was taken up by Mohamed and they plainly can not shake it, as you can quickly demise, about 70 yrs after the profits death and with no real way to establish dominance they turned against them selves dividing into shia and Sunni cleverly disguising the fact that almost all shia are in fact Persians not Arab at all so you begin to see thereal motivation behind religious doctrine. now we could easily do this examinationfor Christianity and the incidences are to many to recount, from the Jews and non Jews in the early churchonward to the Inquisition of the holy Roman empire to the the colonization and conversion of the reachable world under protestant Europe (Africa is still bleeding out from that little episode and will probably die from it.)


no offense to fundamentalist baptists but if they didn't buy their way into the conversation though charitable giving the would be quickly drummed out of any meaningful interaction with society.


cp





The problem with your view is that the so called peace you talk about is very unstable, the two factions hamaus and fatha are prime examles they say the want the same thing yet kill each other. The heart is what God looks at, 50 years ago you rarely heard fo some one harming a child now it common place. What you see as peace I see as apeasement to the evil in mans heart. You are sadly correct about some churches letting people do as they please and say it's ok. In fact it's not if you love the Lord you will keep his commandments he said so, I can't justify this it's wrong! However there are true christains out there, I belive someone made the comment that everyone that said Lord Lord will not get in. When elijah ran from jezebel. God told him he had 7000 that had not bowed to baal. So I asure you there are christians out there that are true to the word. This proves again that we are comming to the end as in the old testament the end comes when there are no more that will serve God. Not saying you can't belive the way you want I just don't see the same things you do. Serving God

[Hebephrenia]

Excellent points. I believe that S2LR, among others, have demonstrated two things: 1-The Bible is fallible, 2-Those who believeit don't follow it. But that topicis a smoking holealong with the believer's arguments.....smileys/smiley19.gif


Let's take religion out of the "evil" equation. Now how do you explain bad behaviorKind of hard when you don't have the devil to blame isn't it Tell me, howdid Charlie Manson get his followers to kill for him Tell me how the Nazi war machine justified the murder of over 6 million jews. Tell me why thousands of people arebeing slaughtered in Rwanda by machete wielding tribes. Satan NO. How about the lust for power, politics, sex, and money. Fact is, there is no such thing as evil, but only destructive behavior due to the above. What about the mentally ill Are they evil How do you know that the accounts of people acting crazy in the Bible weren'tmentally ill withpsychoisand NOT demon possessed After all, we use to bore holes in people's skulls (trephination) to let out the "demons" or "blood let" (venesection) people for the same purpose among other crude methods, due to religous beliefs. Then we advanced to "exorcism" because we couldn'tus the fatal primitive means aforementioned. I want an explanation without satan as the scapegoat. It is what I started out saying way early in this thread---people have created religion to explain why thingshappen. While it is ONE way explaining things, it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. A religous "revival" is a modern day example of mass hysteria---easily explained through psychological principles. I want sporty or HW to drink strychnine to demonstrate that they are believers in accordance withMark 16:18, or handle a Black Momba serpent and have it sink it's fangs into them without any effect. Come on, explain the above to me.......

[sporty91]

At one point in this thread someone issued a challenge to prove thatthe bible is untrue. this of course can be easily done, now thatI think about it. if you recall from the 1960's an overwhelming number of Churches instituted a quasibook burning over a statement by John Lennon that the Beatles were more popular than Christ, and if you look at the the beliefs of fundamental Christianity these preachers were absolutely right. a no more hedonistic drug soaked abandon with the the ways of the flesh could hardly be brought to bear on American youth, at least at that time. yet very quickly the denominationswere faced with their own extinction and quickly recanted their hard line ways regardless of the bibles teachings.now it is quite common to hear Beatles songs use in the functions of church events. Revelation no. economics. If you threaten the collection plate you will see the most hard core fire and brimstone preacher flirting with homosexuals, thieves, gamblers and every kind of vice imaginable.The rationalizations are endless bordering on the retarded


cp





How does that make the bible false People have always twisted the word to say what they want it to say. That does not mean it's not true. There are drugs out there that was invented to help ease pain but when abused they become bad. Same thing here, that is why the bible says to figure out your own salvation with fear and trimbling. It is up to you to decide what is true, not some body you hardly know. Another example is doctors some are very good some not so good. One will tell you you have 6 months to live, then you find one that knows a little more and they are able to help you find a cure. So just because a few sellout does not mean we all have. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.

[Red,]

Pleaseunderstand our hearts are evil . . .


At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (Genisis 6:5reads )


And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,


and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~


We must strive daily for a pure heart . . .


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.


Team WandL Racing.


PMR components.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[sporty91]

Excellent points. I believe that S2LR, among others, have demonstrated two things: 1-The Bible is fallible, 2-Those who believeit don't follow it. But that topicis a smoking holealong with the believer's arguments.....smileys/smiley19.gif


Let's take religion out of the "evil" equation. Now how do you explain bad behaviorKind of hard when you don't have the devil to blame isn't it Tell me, howdid Charlie Manson get his followers to kill for him Tell me how the Nazi war machine justified the murder of over 6 million jews. Tell me why thousands of people arebeing slaughtered in Rwanda by machete wielding tribes. Satan NO. How about the lust for power, politics, sex, and money. Fact is, there is no such thing as evil, but only destructive behavior due to the above. What about the mentally ill Are they evil How do you know that the accounts of people acting crazy in the Bible weren'tmentally ill withpsychoisand NOT demon possessed After all, we use to bore holes in people's skulls (trephination) to let out the "demons" or "blood let" (venesection) people for the same purpose among other crude methods, due to religous beliefs. Then we advanced to "exorcism" because we couldn'tus the fatal primitive means aforementioned. I want an explanation without satan as the scapegoat. It is what I started out saying way early in this thread---people have created religion to explain why thingshappen. While it is ONE way explaining things, it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. A religous "revival" is a modern day example of mass hysteria---easily explained through psychological principles. I want sporty or HW to drink strychnine to demonstrate that they are believers in accordance withMark 16:18, or handle a Black Momba serpent and have it sink it's fangs into them without any effect. Come on, explain the above to me.......





Mark 16;18 is not to be used to show off, here is a example of what it means,
<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Act 28:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Act&amp;chapter=28&amp;verse=3&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#3)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid [them] on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=4></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Act/28/4.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Act&amp;chapter=28&amp;verse=4&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#4)http ://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Act&amp;chapter=28&amp;verse=4&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#4)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gif<A title="Versi&#111;ns / Translati&#111;ns" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;

[Hebephrenia]

Sporty, are you a believer or an unbeliever If you are a believer, signs should follow. Have you spoken in tongues If so,what was the purpose The scripture said, .....and these signs shall follow them that believe....not just Paul. Let me know when you are going to handle a Puff Adder or drink poison. If you are hurt, then you are not a believer.


This is exactly what I thought.....Satan blamed for everything. "Evil" can be explained rather easily without satan being involved. That is why I asked what the operational definition was. You guys can't seem to have a scholarly discussion without the bible.


Oh, by the way, our understanding of the mind/body and how they influence each other is really quite in its infancy, but I've seen people's BELIEF outside of religon make them well. The cyclist Lance Armstrong is a great example---not a religous guy, but certainly influenced his own recovery by his stalwart belief that he could beattesticular, brain and lung cancer. So maybe those people in the Bible BELIEVED in Jesus enough that it healed them and was not necessarily a "miracle". You call this faith. I call it belief. This is whyJim Jones got hundreds to drink cyanide Koolaid---they believed he wasan emmissary of Christ, or Christ himself, and died for their belief.


Come now, leave your bible out of it and let's discuss "evil", otherwise the thread is dead and I'm out. I'm tired of hearing the same rhetoric since you guys think that everyone believes in the spiritual concept of "evil". You can't debate with someone who keeps going back to the same argument time and time again, especially when that argument is based on their "belief." Maybe you guys have dropped too many hits of acid before becoming believers or the long term effects of cannabis sativa have come to call......ain't that right You know I'm right....

[Red,]

So maybe those people in the Bible BELIEVED in Jesus enough that it healed them and was not necessarily a "miracle".


You call this faith. I call it belief.


At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (Mathew 7:22 &amp; 23reads )


Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name


And in thy name have cast out devils


And in thy name done many wonderful works


And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:


Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[sporty91]

Sporty, are you a believer or an unbeliever If you are a believer, signs should follow. Have you spoken in tongues If so,what was the purpose The scripture said, .....and these signs shall follow them that believe....not just Paul. Let me know when you are going to handle a Puff Adder or drink poison. If you are hurt, then you are not a believer.


This is exactly what I thought.....Satan blamed for everything. "Evil" can be explained rather easily without satan being involved. That is why I asked what the operational definition was. You guys can't seem to have a scholarly discussion without the bible.


Oh, by the way, our understanding of the mind/body and how they influence each other is really quite in its infancy, but I've seen people's BELIEF outside of religon make them well. The cyclist Lance Armstrong is a great example---not a religous guy, but certainly influenced his own recovery by his stalwart belief that he could beattesticular, brain and lung cancer. So maybe those people in the Bible BELIEVED in Jesus enough that it healed them and was not necessarily a "miracle". You call this faith. I call it belief. This is whyJim Jones got hundreds to drink cyanide Koolaid---they believed he wasan emmissary of Christ, or Christ himself, and died for their belief.


Come now, leave your bible out of it and let's discuss "evil", otherwise the thread is dead and I'm out. I'm tired of hearing the same rhetoric since you guys think that everyone believes in the spiritual concept of "evil". You can't debate with someone who keeps going back to the same argument time and time again, especially when that argument is based on their "belief." Maybe you guys have dropped too many hits of acid before becoming believers or the long term effects of cannabis sativa have come to call......ain't that right You know I'm right....





Yes I have spoke in tonuges mostly in prayer, I have also been a part of casting out demons. I have live through many times I should have died. I give all glory and praise for these things to Jesus Christ. Steped on a rattle snake when I was 12 never bit me does that count to you You ask me to leave my bible out of it yet you keep quoting verses what's up with that. If you don't want to stay in the debate you are free to leave it as you have said you were going to a few times. You can belive you are right if you want I don't belive you are, here'sthe deal when you stand before the one and only livingGod and tell him you were never told the truth you will not have a leg to stand on. As at least 3 people on here have told you the truth. I know a few words of spanish I canask for a straw, silverwear and napkins and they understand me. However I can notspeak or understandall there words. Now the reasonI said that is just because you can read the bible in no way lets you understand the meaning in a spiritual way. The bible was just a bunch of words tillI was saved. Now when I read it,the spirit speaks to me. Youare quoting the bible yet you say you don't belive it I don't think I would keep quoting a book I did not belive in. I gave you a very good example of what the verse ment and you still want a sign Jesus said a perverse genraition seeks a sign. He also saidthey would not get a sign. But the one of the son of man being in theheart of the earth the same amount of days Johna was in the belly of the fish.3 days. There is your sign. The only one that means anything any way.The bible has been proved true in secular writtings many times did you ever check out Lee Stroble As I said beforehe set out to prove to his wife the bible was false, and through much study of historyand it's writtings[not only the bible]he concluded that Jesus was who he said he was. No one around but him and the Holy Spirit.Yo

[Jagdpanzer]

How does that make the bible false People have always twisted the word to say what they want it to say. That does not mean it's not true. There are drugs out there that was invented to help ease pain but when abused they become bad. Same thing here, that is why the bible says to figure out your own salvation with fear and trimbling. It is up to you to decide what is true, not some body you hardly know. Another example is doctors some are very good some not so good. One will tell you you have 6 months to live, then you find one that knows a little more and they are able to help you find a cure. So just because a few sellout does not mean we all have. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


[/QUOTE] It really dose not help at all, you seem incapable of addressing any particular subject and so you made my point which was, if you try to apply the bible to any real moral situation you will come up with nothing. I will now take your statement and examine it a little moreclosely


A.People have always twisted the word to say what they want it to say. That does not mean it's not true When referring to my proposition I'm really not sure who your referring to the Beatles or the Preachers.


B. There are drugs out there that was invented to help ease pain but when abused they become bad. This really dose not make sense are you saying the Beatles did not advocate drug use or that the church just slanted the interpretation of their message


C. It is up to you to decide what is true. well I guess I can form my own church and people will send me money. wait that would make me a Protestant, even if it's hardly biblical. as a matter of fact outside of your out of context quote I don't recall any of this unitarian nonsense in the king James bible.


D. So just because a few sellout does not mean we all have. logically this invalidates everything you said previously.

[Jagdpanzer]

The problem with your view is that the so called peace you talk about is very unstable, the two factions hamaus and fatha are prime examles they say the want the same thing yet kill each other. The heart is what God looks at, 50 years ago you rarely heard fo some one harming a child now it common place. What you see as peace I see as apeasement to the evil in mans heart. You are sadly correct about some churches letting people do as they please and say it's ok. In fact it's not if you love the Lord you will keep his commandments he said so, I can't justify this it's wrong! However there are true christains out there, I belive someone made the comment that everyone that said Lord Lord will not get in. When elijah ran from jezebel. God told him he had 7000 that had not bowed to baal. So I asure you there are christians out there that are true to the word. This proves again that we are comming to the end as in the old testament the end comes when there are no more that will serve God. Not saying you can't belive the way you want I just don't see the same things you do. Serving God is not going to church or givingmoney to the church it'sgoing where he sends you even if you didn't want to. Please understand people see thingsfrom dirrerent points of views to you it word peace I see a world that is condoning evil. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


[/QUOTE]


well in my book peace is peace. ask somebody who's just getting some see if they agree with your version.if raising the living wage of the developing world is somehow making a deal with the devil thenI say pay the man and let a soul have a few things you take for granted everyday. it's true they sell women in the Old USSR countries and white slavery thrives over there but I hope your not suggesting that we bring uncle Joe Stalin cause he kept a lid on it.


"What you see as peace I see as apeasement to the evil in mans heart." If you were honest you would admitthat this reaction is just plain fear. not counting the fact that it's part of any real religion it's just an extrapolation of the counter culture doctrine taught in the non- denominational since the early 70's so who's adding to the book as the scripture goes


However there are true Christan's out thereboy theres the rub where are the true Christians


I love this one the best it'sthe best preacher lie! Serving God is not going to church or givingmoney to the church it'sgoing where he sends you even if you didn't want to. Just wait to hear the talk your going to get when you tell the preacher your going to make up your own mind, give to the poor outside of the church and tell people the real truth not homogenized version their going to get at the local mutual admiration society, oh yea your not going to listen to him tell you what god showed him. your going to sit at home and wait for god to tell you where to go...!!!LOL come on brother I was raised catholic spent 12 yrs at non-denominational. went to cj mahaney's crazy outfit as a teenagerand did another 5 with the cathoilics...don't you tell me what they say those fools are backbiting evil charlitians, childmolesters drunks and rapesits thiers not one of the who's woth the powder it would take to blow their brains out. you keep beliving child more power to you...but it think the scripter end something like this ...twice the child of hell as they are them selves...you know the one.


cp

[Red,]

At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (1 Corinthians 11:1reads )


Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~


There is only one that we choose to follow . . .


The rest can follow whoeverthey please.


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.

Team WandL Racing.

PMR components.

Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[Jagdpanzer]

At www.BlueLetterBible.oRg (http://www.blueletterbible.org/) (1 Corinthians 11:1reads )


Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~


There is only one that we choose to follow . . .


The rest can follow whoeverthey please.


Pro Street Legal Motorcycle rules !


Motorcycle Dynamics Racing.

Team WandL Racing.

PMR components.

Red, *&lt;(:{)-





That sounds good...but you don't follow an invisible spirit you do what the preacher expects of you...and tell the truth without the preacher you wouldn't have the foggiest idea what to do next. you not allowed to think on your own


cpsmileys/smiley2.gif


Edited by: Jagdpanzer

[Hebephrenia]

[/QUOTE]


Yes I have spoke in tonuges mostly in prayer, I have also been a part of casting out demons. I have live through many times I should have died. I give all glory and praise for these things to Jesus Christ. Steped on a rattle snake when I was 12 never bit me does that count to you You ask me to leave my bible out of it yet you keep quoting verses what's up with that. If you don't want to stay in the debate you are free to leave it as you have said you were going to a few times. You can belive you are right if you want I don't belive you are, here'sthe deal when you stand before the one and only livingGod and tell him you were never told the truth you will not have a leg to stand on. As at least 3 people on here have told you the truth. I know a few words of spanish I canask for a straw, silverwear and napkins and they understand me. However I can notspeak or understandall there words. Now the reasonI said that is just because you can read the bible in no way lets you understand the meaning in a spiritual way. The bible was just a bunch of words tillI was saved. Now when I read it,the spirit speaks to me. Youare quoting the bible yet you say you don't belive it I don't think I would keep quoting a book I did not belive in. I gave you a very good example of what the verse ment and you still want a sign Jesus said a perverse genraition seeks a sign. He also saidthey would not get a sign. But the one of the son of man being in theheart of the earth the same amount of days Johna was in the belly of the fish.3 days. There is your sign. The only one that means anything any way.The bible has been proved true in secular writtings many times did you ever check out Lee Stroble As I said beforehe set out to prove to his wife the bible was false, and through much study of historyand it's writtings[not only the bible]he concluded that Jesus was who he said he was. No one around but him and the Holy Spirit.You have yet to bring out a point that proves the bible wrong, Yet I have show theline of thinking you put forth lines up with the teaching of the bible. You talk about faithit takes more faith to belivethat all thisjust happened and is not amade byGod. Again we as christains seethrough a glass darkly how then can you w/o the Holy Spirit see clearly To you evil has nothing to do with satan that is not the question here it is, where did evil come from if not satan please showme what you belive.We have shown where we getour line of thought from. Yet all you have done is say we are wrong. You have yet to document your point of view. So now the balls in your court either show some foundation for yourthoughts or set back and learn something. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


[/QUOTE]


That is a very interesting response. I've watched and read your posts closely, yet many answers haven't been forthcoming, including the nature of God, etc., posed by others who have posted. As I've stated several times previously, I've quoted your own book to indicate that you don't follow the teachings contained therein. Don't you find it interesting that I have entertained and read your bible more than you haveexamined another view of thinking about the world You arrogantly tell me in your post above that I will have to answer to the "one and only living god" and that a "perverse generation seeks after a sign", yet this violates what your own book teaches in John 7:24 and other passages on casting judgment and assumes I believe it. Is this a scare tactic You tell me that at least three others have told me the "truth." How do you know it's the truth It is nothing more than your opinion.I could be as right as you, pal. You see,you're like other religous zealots---it's not enough for you to preach to others, but rather you want toassume everyone believ

[sporty91]

How does that make the bible false People have always twisted the word to say what they want it to say. That does not mean it's not true. There are drugs out there that was invented to help ease pain but when abused they become bad. Same thing here, that is why the bible says to figure out your own salvation with fear and trimbling. It is up to you to decide what is true, not some body you hardly know. Another example is doctors some are very good some not so good. One will tell you you have 6 months to live, then you find one that knows a little more and they are able to help you find a cure. So just because a few sellout does not mean we all have. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


It really dose not help at all, you seem incapable of addressing any particular subject and so you made my point which was, if you try to apply the bible to any real moral situation you will come up with nothing. I will now take your statement and examine it a little moreclosely


A.People have always twisted the word to say what they want it to say. That does not mean it's not true When referring to my proposition I'm really not sure who your referring to the Beatles or the Preachers.


B. There are drugs out there that was invented to help ease pain but when abused they become bad. This really dose not make sense are you saying the Beatles did not advocate drug use or that the church just slanted the interpretation of their message


C. It is up to you to decide what is true. well I guess I can form my own church and people will send me money. wait that would make me a Protestant, even if it's hardly biblical. as a matter of fact outside of your out of context quote I don't recall any of this unitarian nonsense in the king James bible.


D. So just because a few sellout does not mean we all have. logically this invalidates everything you said previously.


[/QUOTE]


A Both can and have done that the word I was talking about is the bible any one can take a verse or part of a verse and say what they want to make it look like the bible said it. Now if you want to give up on christ because men has let you down go ahead but the bible said to work it out for yourself so blaming others for you not beliving in Christ is not going to cut it on that day.


B Niether I was trying to show you how you could take something made for good and use it for evil. The bible was ment to be for good as was pain pills in the wrong hands both can be used for evil.


C People do it every day don't mean it is right to do it. What Iwas meaning wasyou as a person have to get your heart right with with Jesus. see sec a above.


D How It is a personal thing you have to work out with Jesus, I or any one else can't get you to heaven. So you are saying if one person quits with their faith then every one has fell See that does not add up as the bible and Jesus says youare responsable for you not the priest or pastor.


As far a unitarian please show me where I have supported that I have said over and over that you have to be right with the Lord have I not So the staement you made about that is the one that is not valid.

[sporty91]

Yes I have spoke in tonuges mostly in prayer, I have also been a part of casting out demons. I have live through many times I should have died. I give all glory and praise for these things to Jesus Christ. Steped on a rattle snake when I was 12 never bit me does that count to you You ask me to leave my bible out of it yet you keep quoting verses what's up with that. If you don't want to stay in the debate you are free to leave it as you have said you were going to a few times. You can belive you are right if you want I don't belive you are, here'sthe deal when you stand before the one and only livingGod and tell him you were never told the truth you will not have a leg to stand on. As at least 3 people on here have told you the truth. I know a few words of spanish I canask for a straw, silverwear and napkins and they understand me. However I can notspeak or understandall there words. Now the reasonI said that is just because you can read the bible in no way lets you understand the meaning in a spiritual way. The bible was just a bunch of words tillI was saved. Now when I read it,the spirit speaks to me. Youare quoting the bible yet you say you don't belive it I don't think I would keep quoting a book I did not belive in. I gave you a very good example of what the verse ment and you still want a sign Jesus said a perverse genraition seeks a sign. He also saidthey would not get a sign. But the one of the son of man being in theheart of the earth the same amount of days Johna was in the belly of the fish.3 days. There is your sign. The only one that means anything any way.The bible has been proved true in secular writtings many times did you ever check out Lee Stroble As I said beforehe set out to prove to his wife the bible was false, and through much study of historyand it's writtings[not only the bible]he concluded that Jesus was who he said he was. No one around but him and the Holy Spirit.You have yet to bring out a point that proves the bible wrong, Yet I have show theline of thinking you put forth lines up with the teaching of the bible. You talk about faithit takes more faith to belivethat all thisjust happened and is not amade byGod. Again we as christains seethrough a glass darkly how then can you w/o the Holy Spirit see clearly To you evil has nothing to do with satan that is not the question here it is, where did evil come from if not satan please showme what you belive.We have shown where we getour line of thought from. Yet all you have done is say we are wrong. You have yet to document your point of view. So now the balls in your court either show some foundation for yourthoughts or set back and learn something. Hope this helps and have a blessed day.


[/QUOTE]


That is a very interesting response. I've watched and read your posts closely, yet many answers haven't been forthcoming, including the nature of God, etc., posed by others who have posted. As I've stated several times previously, I've quoted your own book to indicate that you don't follow the teachings contained therein. Don't you find it interesting that I have entertained and read your bible more than you haveexamined another view of thinking about the world You arrogantly tell me in your post above that I will have to answer to the "one and only living god" and that a "perverse generation seeks after a sign", yet this violates what your own book teaches in John 7:24 and other passages on casting judgment and assumes I believe it. Is this a scare tactic You tell me that at least three others have told me the "truth." How do you know it's the truth It is nothing more than your opinion.I could be as right as you, pal. You see,you're like other religous zealots---it's not enough for you to preach to others, but rather you want to

[Red,]

That sounds good...


but you don't follow an invisible spirit you do what the preacher expects of you...


and tell the truth without the preacher you wouldn't have the foggiest idea what to do next.


you not allowed to think on your own


cpsmileys/smiley2.gif





That should read The Holy Spirit, not preacher.


And you're correct, I wouldn't know.


Just as anyone else wouldn't.


We must seek GOD first.


Following his will.


Red, *&lt;(:{)-

[Jagdpanzer]

If you want to call those guys you get council from "the holy spirit" thats your affair....I wouldn't do that. just remember there is no such thing as corporate guilt. If there is a last judgment as you say you'll have to answer for your own actions blaming the presbytery or the holy spirit won't absolve you. Christians are often taught that "God is not respecter of persons" this iscontext-ed to mean that God sees the inward man as opposed to outward appearance, this is only the grade school meaning of the precept. it actually means ignorance of the law is no excuse. A case in point... this actually happened to a kidI know and I have been in and around churches for all my life and I have personally witnessed hundreds of these situations.


The preacher need help building his church, so he tell the young man thatstudying socialism and political philosophy at university would lead to an unholy life. so the kid quits school for "discipleship" well when the church is finished the boy complains of unemployment and the preacher is of course unsympathetic he dose not want to deal with young man because basically he's got what he wanted and has no more use for him.. and tells him this. of course the preacher is a coward and couches it in the statement "God must havea use for you elsewhere" shocked and hurt the young man goes home to his family and attempts to start his life over. born again yea born again happens alot in ones life...


cp

[sporty91]

If you want to call those guys you get council from "the holy spirit" thats your affair....I wouldn't do that. just remember there is no such thing as corporate guilt. If there is a last judgment as you say you'll have to answer for your own actions blaming the presbytery or the holy spirit won't absolve you. Christians are often taught that "God is not respecter of persons" this iscontext-ed to mean that God sees the inward man as opposed to outward appearance, this is only the grade school meaning of the precept. it actually means ignorance of the law is no excuse. A case in point... this actually happened to a kidI know and I have been in and around churches for all my life and I have personally witnessed hundreds of these situations.


The preacher need help building his church, so he tell the young man thatstudying socialism and political philosophy at university would lead to an unholy life. so the kid quits school for "discipleship" well when the church is finished the boy complains of unemployment and the preacher is of course unsympathetic he dose not want to deal with young man because basically he's got what he wanted and has no more use for him.. and tells him this. of course the preacher is a coward and couches it in the statement "God must havea use for you elsewhere" shocked and hurt the young man goes home to his family and attempts to start his life over. born again yea born again happens alot in ones life...


cp





This is a very bad way to treat some one however if the young man had been looking to the Holy Spirit instead of a man, he would have had a chance to do what would have been best for him. This is a good story to show my point of having to have your own relationship with Jesus. I have a very devoted pastor he has gave me very good advice when I needed it, all he told me could be backed up by the word of God.However I have to make my own decisions, I can't blame him if things don't work out.Don't blame all christians for the action of a few,most of us are trying to serve the Lord. As you said the Lord is no respecter of persons, so that means the young man should have sought the will of the Lord for his life. I seek council from the Holy Spirit for myself as can anybody that is saved as the Holy Spirit lives inside anyone who is saved.


Here is a verse that backs up what I said.
<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Eph 1:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Eph&amp;chapter=1&amp;verse=13&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#13 )</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,</TD></TR></T></TABLE>Edited by: sporty91

[Jagdpanzer]

Well this topic can't get any where..your a baby Christian as they say only got the milk they won't give out the meat in the non-denom they are scared just like your scared


come back when you get a little older and I will be happy to talk with you man to man


cp

[sporty91]

Well this topic can't get any where..your a baby Christian as they say only got the milk they won't give out the meat in the non-denom they are scared just like your scared


come back when you get a little older and I will be happy to talk with you man to man


cp





I have answered you man to man in every post you are the one running as I can defend my stance any day.Have I learned things yes have any one shook my faith no. I will always have alot to learn about the word of God. If you have figured it out please clue is in as paul said he did not have it all figured out.



<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Phl 3:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Phl&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#10 )</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=11></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Phl/3/11.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Phl&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#11)htt p://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Phl&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#11 )</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Phl&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #11)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Phl&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#11)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Phl 3:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Phl&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#11 )</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=12></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Phl/3/12.html)<A title="C&#111;ncordance and Hebrew/Greek" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Phl&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=12&

[Jagdpanzer]

Well You win the bible quoting contest! boy I remeber you guys they didn't have a computer back then. Thank god


do you think God considersa high powered internet computer driven concordancecheating or blasphemy of the holy spirit they don't forgive you for that do they


figured what out Paul did not write 2/3 of the new testament, 2/3 of the new testament had to be formed out of what letters of his they could salvage mainly because the rest of the writings differed and were written by Jewish believers who still wanted to be Jews there fore, the holy spirit what,, stopped talking to them or maybe invalidated their salvation cause they were circumcised or avoided pork or maybe when peter went back to the holy spirit and reminded jesus that he was head of the church jesus said "just kidding"


so what about gays in the church sure seemsthere arealot of fags hanging around the church these days they sure want to be with you...shouldn't you take them in dosen't jesus love them even though they still want to be gays


cp

[hwrogers]

ok, this thread has gotten severely out of hand... hebephrenia, did i actually see you qoute STAR WARS in a religious debate for cryen' out loud dude, and expecting an explanation for the origin of evil without the use of religion and reference to satan or "the dark one" or any other religions name for the entity of evil, you want a scientific debate on evil completely void of all religious explanation then YOU don't know science, in science there is no evil or good simply fact, you're wanting oranges from the apple cart dude, drop the science crap, that is not relavent to the debate at hand, and the operative deffinition of evil for purposes of this debate from here forth will be ACTIONS OF MAN!!! i said that before and was apperantly ignored, and i probly will have to quote my own self to show that i said that before along with an explanation of the origin of evil that resides within all men, genetics is part of gods design and i already explained how even with the pressumed absence of god that "evil intentions" can arise and even worsen through repeated generations of evil being multiplied and refined through genetic mutation, i have said it already and will make another post in a minute to quote what i said two maybe three pages ago...


jagdpanzer, well at least you didn't quote star wars, but you have shown that you had a religious background, but apperantly dont realize that the holy spirit in it's communications with each individual most often has absolutely nothing to do with the priest or pastor, if god wants to talk with you he'll do it himself, not the local worship leader, that's their job, lead the congregation in worship, and sprinkle/splash/or douse those who chose to be babtised to satisfy the assumed pre-requisit of public babtism, as for catholocism (sp) i believe that their are far too many catholics that are confused and have no real idea how little and how much is required for true salvation, and if you don't understand what i just said don't reply until you have prayed for god to forgive your sins and THEN to releve you of your confusion and clarify your thoughts, then and only then should you reply, and btw by pray to god i mean without the assistance or guidance of a priest and do it from the heart, for yourself, without shame and do it humbly, it is god your talking to when you pray so be respectful...


and one more time i challenge both of you to prove the bible wrong in it's entirety, and especially to prove the new testament wrong, jagd you said it was easy prove it, i stand firm in my beliefs that noone will ever prove the bible wrong or fallible (btw hebe who proved it fallible and how that is what i'm challenging you to do) and i believe so because the bible is the irrefutable truth,


and now i'll re-post what i said i would earlier...

[hwrogers]

ok, not all bad events are evil, some are just nature taking it's course, katrina for example, and some are the results of true evil and hatred, 9-11 for example, and a lot of "misfurtunate circumstance" is simply god testing our faith, or as you may like to sayis just sh*tty luck...


so we'll define the evil under debate as the "true evil and hatred" kind, skip storms and plans gone awry, the bible says, as was noted before, that the first evil was the rebelion of lucifer (call him any number of names you choose, as i recall there have been over some 2000 names made for him) and the "original sin" being adams eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge (no version of genesis i've heard actually specifies apple, interesting tidbit) and by genetic inheritance the inclination towards evil has been passed to every human since, and in family lines where more have followed there darker behavioural inclinations stronger and stronger inclinations have passed on and made some groups seem almost entirely evil, as they are left with little or no kindness within them, and so we get the crazy evil people we have to put up with today...


and btw i am no "man of the cloth", i'm just another soul stuck in this existance until god decides he has no more plans for me (he obviously has plans, or he'd've called me home long ago on so very many occassions... so many times i should've died and haven't, someone apperantly has plans that involve me living past as many things as i have...) i am just another sinful mechanic, and bent on doing thing's in a manner out of the ordinary... i try to live by the rules, but i'm not going to be a bible thumper (this thread is about evil, so the bible is involved, noone here is a bible thumper unless bringing this stuff up in another topic not haveing to do with such things...) anyhow i'm rambling now, and tomorrow i may have something to reply to again, gametime for now :P

[jackinzoar]

Mr Rogers ,,, are you possibly presbyterian ,,, I am

[Jagdpanzer]

jagdpanzer, well at least you didn't quote star wars, but you have shown that you had a religious background, but apperantly dont realize that the holy spirit in it's communications with each individual most often has absolutely nothing to do with the priest or pastor, if god wants to talk with you he'll do it himself, not the local worship leader, that's their job, lead the congregation in worship, and sprinkle/splash/or douse those who chose to be babtised to satisfy the assumed pre-requisit of public babtism, as for catholocism (sp) i believe that their are far too many catholics that are confused and have no real idea how little and how much is required for true salvation, and if you don't understand what i just said don't reply until you have prayed for god to forgive your sins and THEN to releve you of your confusion and clarify your thoughts, then and only then should you reply, and btw by pray to god i mean without the assistance or guidance of a priest and do it from the heart, for yourself, without shame and do it humbly, it is god your talking to when you pray so be respectful...


and one more time i challenge both of you to prove the bible wrong in it's entirety, and especially to prove the new testament wrong, jagd you said it was easy prove it, i stand firm in my beliefs that noone will ever prove the bible wrong or fallible (btw hebe who proved it fallible and how that is what i'm challenging you to do) and i believe so because the bible is the irrefutable truth,


and now i'll re-post what i said i would earlier...





MMM i have to have become a born again fundamentalist to continue the discussion. well this ain't your congregation and you didn't start the thread so I don'tthink thats up to you to decide. If the subject is anything other than the Modern version of how to get to the westernized version of HEAVEN than the the bible can proved wrong under any other topic,just pick one. apart from the afore mentioned I notice you ascribe all other human conditions as political so you are I assume some sort of bible robot with noconnection to the world the rest of us live in...just out of curiosity what was the last thing god said to you I'm sure it would be helpfull to the rest of the world....You can overlook the last question if the ansewr is any of the following...fear not! or be of good courage or maybe little children I am with you.


pick a topic, I can prove it inadiquate faster than you can say mathew mark luke and john bless the bed that I lie on....~


cpEdited by: Jagdpanzer

[Hebephrenia]

The bottom line for me is that you can't argue against someone's BELIEF, regardless of whether they are presented with fact or evidence to the contrary. Sporty and HW have a certain held belief, but that doesn't mean it is correct---it simply means it is thier belief. Re-read my example of the snake bite in my last post. For the person who truly believes that it was devine intervention, there is nothing anyone could do to convince them otherwise. People's perceptions can't be changed.


HW, which of all the churches that teach from the Bible is the correct oneDon't you think it is a bit pompous for you to challenge people in this thread to prove the Bible wrong when you can't even agree with thouands of others who teach out of the same book The burden of proof then lies with you. I am an unbeliever who stands alone. You are a believer who hasn't proven himself against the other believers---whose beliefs are radically different from yours. Your position then, issimply anopinion---something that everyone has, and is entitled to have, but it doesn't mean you are right. You see, before you can be taken seriously, you have to prove that yours is the one true way, otherwise I am debating an opinion or a belief---a no win situation.


I've attended and studied many, many churches to educate myself, and can attest that they all dramatically differ in the mechanics of salvation, the nature of god, and a host of other doctrines. Prove to us that your belief is thecorrect oneand then you can tell us to repent, otherwise you are just another over zealous street corner preacher who believeshis own dogmatic propaganda----"vain babblings", if you may. Challenge yourself and your belief.I would encourage you to vigorously debate with other churches, and when you emerge victorious, let us know. I won't hold my breath.....

[jackinzoar]

being that Jagpanzier and sporty are both dyed in the wool HD guys (I only just switched recently) I suppose we should back out now ,, but I'm a devoted presbyterian as was Mr Rogers (bless his cardigan sweater) ,,, my favorite quote .... "hey little boy , can you say biatch if you say biatch and your Mommy slaps you , you said it RIGHT" !!!

[hwrogers]

sorry jack, i'm not prebyterian, i am a christian (maybe not a good one but nay-the-less...) who attends at a church-house with methodist on the sign, but as long as you follow god the father of our lord jesus i don't care what the sign says in front of your church house...


jagd, the last thing god "said" to me was along the lines of "that hurt huh, dipwad stop being stupid!" while i had a short lapse of faith and bent the forks on my ninja... got his message about the time i was looking down at the trunk of a grand am... he speaks in ways other than words but the meaning isfar too often lost in translation, you have to listen in the right state of mind and the sign you ask for will never be given, i have tried too many times to ask for a certain sign, and a different one comes along and waves as it passes me bybecause i'm not in the right frame of mind to realize what it means, however that green pontiac certainly got me in that frame of mind rather quickly...


and btw where did i ascribe all human conditions aside from whatever you're saying is the afore mentioned as political much of what happens today revolves around politics yes, but also not the title of this topic, that is the topic, where did evil come from... not heaven and how to get there, but evil and where it came from, and it apperantly needs to be defined, so for the sake of an organized discussion and in the context of the original post it is the actions of people that are harmful and hateful to other people, if the auther of this topic disagrees i will gladly delete all my posts from this topic.


and as for how i have to prove myself against other christians what are you talking about hebe where in your overzealous biblical study did you find that christians must prove themselves to each other please tell me where it is in the bible, if it's in there...

[Jagdpanzer]

hmmm.. i think that's more on the political side than religious.. i'm not touching that (personally i disagree with both churches in that matter, but I'm not affected by it so I'll keep my mouth shut)


now let's keep this irrelavent stuff out and back to the debate on evil and from whence it came...





This a dodge and not even a clever one,of whathas become a real problem for religious people today; you being religious, it's your problem..I personally don't need to blame a phantom for my real dislike for the company of homosexuals...you on the the other hand need someone to blame foryour actions if they should come back to haunt you one day. or maybe you actually kinda like them and feel torn about your God saying they should be killed, or maybe you don't know what you think cause noone at the the chrurch has told you what to think yet.


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

and one more time i challenge both of you to prove the bible wrong in it's entirety, and especially to prove the new testament wrong, jagd you said it was easy prove it, i stand firm in my beliefs that noone will ever prove the bible wrong or fallible (btw hebe who proved it fallible and how that is what i'm challenging you to do) and i believe so because the bible is the irrefutable truth,





This is what turned this topic into what it is presently. A debate about the validity of present day Christianity. Taking any number of human conditions the bible is found to be wholly irrelevant. being irrelevant with the exception of it's self defined purpose (the conversion to Christianity) it falls into the category of myth and myths are not true and are not intended to be. The bible canot be relied upon for a host of real problems. slavery , abortion, sexuality, and the list goes on nationalism, intereligiuos relations, womens rights, you name it.


cp

[Hebephrenia]

and as for how i have to prove myself against other christians what are you talking about hebe where in your overzealous biblical study did you find that christians must prove themselves to each other please tell me where it is in the bible, if it's in there...





When they differ in what the bible teaches is necessary to be saved---that is why you need to prove your way is correct. Answer the question. Also, go find the local Church of Christ minister and tell him/her that you don't believer baptism is necessary for salvation or that the godhead is all one, and you'll get roasted. Which one of you is correct since you follow the same bookAnswer the question!


Go back and read S2LR's treatment of the Godhead.Did either youor sporty answerthe questions asked No. You threw up smoke and mirrors. If this was a real debate with a moderator, you guys would have been laughed off the stage days ago. Pony up tough guy, and answer the question posed above.

[sporty91]

and as for how i have to prove myself against other christians what are you talking about hebe where in your overzealous biblical study did you find that christians must prove themselves to each other please tell me where it is in the bible, if it's in there...





When they differ in what the bible teaches is necessary to be saved---that is why you need to prove your way is correct. Answer the question. Also, go find the local Church of Christ minister and tell him/her that you don't believer baptism is necessary for salvation or that the godhead is all one, and you'll get roasted. Which one of you is correct since you follow the same bookAnswer the question!


Go back and read S2LR's treatment of the Godhead.Did either youor sporty answerthe questions asked No. You threw up smoke and mirrors. If this was a real debate with a moderator, you guys would have been laughed off the stage days ago. Pony up tough guy, and answer the question posed above.





Here read it for yourself.
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 ="table_bible"><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68 ="td_bible_verse_ing"><NOBR>Jhn 3:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=3&amp;verse=36&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#36 )</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="parSym"></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="td_bible_text">He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>


More to come.



<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>1Jo 5:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=1Jo&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#10 )</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=11></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Jo/5/11.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=1Jo&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#11)htt p://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=1Jo&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#11 )</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=1Jo&amp;chapter=5&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #11)<A title="Dicti&#111;nary Aids" href="http:/

[Hebephrenia]

Good grief. Will anyone answer my question Which of all the churches is the correct one when they teach opposing doctrine


Sporty, how does the post aboveanswer the question I posed It cites aseries of scriptures that attest to Christ. No doubt that all the churches that teach from the bible believe in Christ and that he was the son of God, but DIFFERin who god is, works, and WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. Why is this Did you read my post above Debate with your local Church of Christ minister. Which of you is right They believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, for example, and that there are 3 separate and distinct members of the Godhead, both in direct opposition to what you have argued in this thread.Your repetitious citation of scripturedoesn't answer the mail. I already know you believein the scriptures and that Jesus is God's son---so do a thousand other churches.What's it going to be You or HW; ANSWER THE QUESTION! Establish your credibility.....

[hwrogers]

hmmm.. i think that's more on the political side than religious.. i'm not touching that (personally i disagree with both churches in that matter, but I'm not affected by it so I'll keep my mouth shut)


now let's keep this irrelavent stuff out and back to the debate on evil and from whence it came...





This a dodge and not even a clever one,of whathas become a real problem for religious people today; you being religious, it's your problem..I personally don't need to blame a phantom for my real dislike for the company of homosexuals...you on the the other hand need someone to blame foryour actions if they should come back to haunt you one day. or maybe you actually kinda like them and feel torn about your God saying they should be killed, or maybe you don't know what you think cause noone at the the chrurch has told you what to think yet.


cp





ok, the seperation of these two church houses from the presbyterian organization is entirely political, that post was no dodge, i was stateing that bringing up the departure of two churchhouses from a main organization is irrelevent to this discussion, and on the topic of homosexuality, i do not agree with them,but they have the right to do as they please, and god does not say they should be killed, not anywhere i've read anyhow, they should resist the temptation to comit such acts of sexual immorality, but they can be saved, and with the power of god they can be rid of much of the temptation, they may still be tempted, but they are instructed to resist it, as is an alchoholic or someone dealing with any other kind of adiction, or repeated temptation towards sinful ways, and btw i do not blame anyone, not even god, for my actions, i am my own person and entirely responsible for all my own actions and words, noone else, i develope my own opinions and interpretations of what i read and hear, noone tells me what to think, perhaps what they think, and often i do agree, but not because they said it, but of my own free will, wich is among the few things that we are promised, is free will, so back off this repetitious line of the church having us zombified or entranced, that's an outright lie and you know it.

[hwrogers]

The bible canot be relied upon for a host of real problems. slavery , abortion, sexuality, and the list goes on nationalism, intereligiuos relations, womens rights, you name it.


cp





ok, slavery is addressed in the bible, i don't know the exact verse but as i recall the jist was that a slave owner was to treat the slaves as good as they treat themselves, that's the only one i am so unsure on, but what slavery remains today is purely evil, for two reasons; 1, in the old testament and the new it is said we are to follow the laws established by the government we live under unless they are repressive the beliefs and worship of the people, and 2, i haven't heard of a slave being used in the last hundred years for anything that wouldn't be sinful outside of slavery, but yes slavery is addressed in the bible, next;


abortion, oh yes, a very touchy subject indeed,again i don't recall the exact verse but it is said the spirit is in the blood, and the fetus isn't invused with blood until about 17-18 days after conception where the sperm enters the egg so technically an abortion performed before this time can be viewed as not being murder, but i'll not speek my own mind on this subject, i want to see what you say...


sexuality, one of the most covered sins throughout the bible in both testaments, sex is god's gift to man (and woman) to be enjoyed by a married couple consisting of 1 male and 1 female bound by holy matrimony (to each other...)


nationalism, ok, i'll ask you to expand on this one as to what the problem is, i'm proud to be an american, and i don't see a problem with anyone being proud of their heritage and/or national origin, regardless of where they are from, so long as they don't go talking trash about another's country


(edit; assuming you mean courtship type relations) inter-religious relationships... best if avoided, typically messy, and it is addresed in the bible but i can't recal much of it as it was considered a minor issue at the time and the woman was expected to convert to the man's religion, may or may not be what the bible says, but i advise anyone to avoid this kind of relationship...


women's rights, .... not touching that with a ten foot pole... i'd get my arse kicked, no thanks


and now for some i want you to prove the bible wrong about;


adultery


gay marriage


war (in general not specificaly current affairs in iraq)


premarital sex


brotherly love (ie, non-sexual love as shared between friends)


murder


whoremongers (nowadays called pimps)


drunkeness


and finally (for now) anger and at what point does it become a sin

[hwrogers]

When they differ in what the bible teaches is necessary to be saved---that is why you need to prove your way is correct. Answer the question. Also, go find the local Church of Christ minister and tell him/her that you don't believer baptism is necessary for salvation or that the godhead is all one, and you'll get roasted. Which one of you is correct since you follow the same bookAnswer the question!


Go back and read S2LR's treatment of the Godhead.Did either youor sporty answerthe questions asked No. You threw up smoke and mirrors. If this was a real debate with a moderator, you guys would have been laughed off the stage days ago. Pony up tough guy, and answer the question posed above.





i don't know about catholocism (i don't personally feel it is christian but that's a different matter) and if they have added/edited/censored or removed material from the bible, but otherwise it is what the preacherare teaching as their requirements for "membership" and salvation, and far too often the difference in teachings comes from varied interpretations being tought and retought without repeated reference to the original, this kind of variation and it's effectscan be demonstrated easily if you have a scanner/printer or copy machine, find a complex picture and copy it, then copy the copy, and repeat with new copys of the previous one, i bet bye the third copy you won't see very much of the original picture, but you'l likely be able to tell what the overall jist is, this is almost exactly what happens in teachings that go through similar copyings...


and now for the question that you want answered and i assume you are talking about the triune godhead concept, they are one and the same, three parts to one god to perform three seperate jobs, all to accomplish the same goal, that is my belief, thatone is for each individual to figure out themselves really, the triune god concept can be debated infinately, several other details in the bible are intended for individual interpretation and not as incredibly significant


ok now if it was a different question you wanted answered please specify what it was that you wanted answered, and i'll do my best

[Jagdpanzer]

Well both you guys proved my point again thought you made a valiant effort it was to no avail.. when contesting about how to be saved you quote the bible ad infinitem.. on these otherissues no such bible quotes appear in your responcesjust your oppinions of what most would admit are some rather thorny issues. I know for a fact the bible addresses some of them and the answers are not pretty. female subjecation (New testement) penelties for sexual immorality are all (old testement) jesus covered alot of ground but somehow missed that one in his contemplations. slavery...I won't even try and recall I'll just goe with the gospel according to sporty91 ; i recall the jist was that a slave owner was to treat the slaves as good as they treat themselves thats not even close. but I can see why you whant to soften up the church fathers when it comes to labor exploitation.
Ok now I will do your list (you don't mind if iI use your computer do you)
Adultery.
Lev 20:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#10) And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
well seems pretty invalid today guess Jesus thought so too.
Gay marrige
Lev 20:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
And Jesus, your comment mmmm Jesus kinda silent on this one. probley because it was widley accepted in his day and a majority of people did not atach the same conotation to it as we do.. thats just speculation on my part though.
WAR; the reason I kinda like god
Exd 15:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd015.html#3) The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name.
This might have something to do with that sword jesus has in his mouth at the end of the book...but hey what do I know
premarital sex:
like this kind ;Lev 19:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev019.html#20) And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that [is] a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
damn no wonder Slavery was so popular in the south.
Lev 20:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#27) A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them. I think my wife has this problem I wonder if where I go to get a stoning.

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 ="table_bible"><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57 ="td_bible_6_s"><NOBR><A name=13></A><A title="Treasury of &#083;cripture Knowledge" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Num/5/13.html" target="_blank"><IMG height=17 alt="Treasury of &#083;cripture Knowledge" hspace=1 src="http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif" width=17 align=bottom vspac

[Jagdpanzer]

premarital sex


due 22:28


If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


somebody owes somebody allot of money!


brotherly love...( shrug you got me there) I think comradeship is pretty universal don't you


Murder


...well I'm with Moses on that one.


whore mongers (nowadays called pimps):


Monger means lover or more correctly whore lovers..so not pimps specifically, so I think you need to be alittle more specific.


drunkeness: I will improvise here...Whats the difference between catholics and protestants


Jdg 9:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jdg/Jdg009.html#13) And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees


Catholics drink in front of one another...


and finally (for now) anger and at what point does it become a sin:


This is of course a loaded question...your forgetting that sin is a state that only exists between and individual and a deitynot between man one to another,,that is called offence...and you address for redress butyou cannot compell..so whats the point.. if someone offends you ask for an apology thats pretty universal.


cpEdited by: Jagdpanzer

[sporty91]

premarital sex


due 22:28


If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


somebody owes somebody allot of money!


brotherly love...( shrug you got me there) I think comradeship is pretty universal don't you


Murder


...well I'm with Moses on that one.


whore mongers (nowadays called pimps):


Monger means lover or more correctly whore lovers..so not pimps specifically, so I think you need to be alittle more specific.


drunkeness: I will improvise here...Whats the difference between catholics and protestants


Jdg 9:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jdg/Jdg009.html#13) And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees


Catholics drink in front of one another...


and finally (for now) anger and at what point does it become a sin:


This is of course a loaded question...your forgetting that sin is a state that only exists between and individual and a deitynot between man one to another,,that is called offence...and you address for redress butyou cannot compell..so whats the point.. if someone offends you ask for an apology thats pretty universal.


cp





You might want to back up on not being able to sin against another man.
<DIV =words-list>1Sa 2:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Sa/1Sa002.html#25) If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.
<DIV =words-list>
<DIV =words-list>So you can sin aganist another man.

[Jagdpanzer]

premarital sex


due 22:28


If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


somebody owes somebody allot of money!


brotherly love...( shrug you got me there) I think comradeship is pretty universal don't you


Murder


...well I'm with Moses on that one.


whore mongers (nowadays called pimps):


Monger means lover or more correctly whore lovers..so not pimps specifically, so I think you need to be alittle more specific.


drunkeness: I will improvise here...Whats the difference between catholics and protestants


Jdg 9:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jdg/Jdg009.html#13) And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees


Catholics drink in front of one another...


and finally (for now) anger and at what point does it become a sin:


This is of course a loaded question...your forgetting that sin is a state that only exists between and individual and a deitynot between man one to another,,that is called offence...and you address for redress butyou cannot compell..so whats the point.. if someone offends you ask for an apology thats pretty universal.


cp





You might want to back up on not being able to sin against another man.
<DIV ="words-list">1Sa 2:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Sa/1Sa002.html#25) If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.
<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">So you can sin aganist another man.





Well all you got to do is find a judge, do you know any besides theres no evidence that anger rose to this level of attention in the LAW, your extrapolating quite a bit here aren't you lets see we have your old testament quote, but anger isn't mentioned.your new testament quote doesn't say what theanger is concerning or who it might be directed at, so it's hard to bring these two verses together in one circumstance without a petty inter church squabble to set the stage..so all in all I think your grasping at straws with this one


cpEdited by: Jagdpanzer

[Jagdpanzer]

Well both you guys proved my point again thought you made a valiant effort it was to no avail.. when contesting about how to be saved you quote the bible ad infinitem.. on these otherissues no such bible quotes appear in your responcesjust your oppinions of what most would admit are some rather thorny issues. I know for a fact the bible addresses some of them and the answers are not pretty. female subjecation (New testement) penelties for sexual immorality are all (old testement) jesus covered alot of ground but somehow missed that one in his contemplations. slavery...I won't even try and recall I'll just goe with the gospel according to sporty91 ; i recall the jist was that a slave owner was to treat the slaves as good as they treat themselves thats not even close. but I can see why you whant to soften up the church fathers when it comes to labor exploitation.
Ok now I will do your list (you don't mind if iI use your computer do you)
Adultery.
Lev 20:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#10) And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
well seems pretty invalid today guess Jesus thought so too.
Gay marrige
Lev 20:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Raise your hand if you want to help me get these gays in the ovens~smileys/smiley17.gif
And Jesus, your comment mmmm Jesus kinda silent on this one. probley because it was widley accepted in his day and a majority of people did not attach the same conotation to it as we do.. thats just speculation on my part though.
WAR; the reason I kinda like god
Exd 15:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd015.html#3) The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name.
This might have something to do with that sword jesus has in his mouth at the end of the book...but hey what do I know
premarital sex:
like this kind ;Lev 19:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev019.html#20) And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that [is] a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
damn no wonder Slavery was so popular in the south.
Lev 20:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#27) A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them. I think my wife has this problem I wonder if where I go to get a stoning.

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 ="table_bible"><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57 ="td_bible_6_s"><NOBR><A name=13></A><A title="Treasury of &#083;cripture Knowledge" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org

[Hebephrenia]

As I had thought..........SILENCE from HW and Sporty regarding which church is true. HW, you did use an effective analogy in regards to your repeated photocopy example, and it represents why there is so much confusion among the churches today---which suggests that the Bible is fallible and less than perfect. If you say, "My belief is the correct one", you lack credibility because neither of you have proven it through stout debate with other churches who use the same book. If you say another church is true, you automatically impeach yourself and everything you've written. I think both know the dilemma faced by answering my question. Threre is no escaping.HW, go back and re-read S2LR's posts on the Godhead and look up the scriptures. You'll be amazed at how wrong you are regarding the way you believe andwhat the Bible actually teaches. And if you are wrong, then you have to abandon your belief and search for a church that teaches that doctrine.

[hwrogers]

ok, hebe, my analogie in no way suggests that the bible is less than perfect nor fallible, but the manner of teaching from one person to another and to another and so on it gets severely mixed up along the way, and again i ask you what verse says that we must prove our beliefs to one another, you'r getting repetitive, and as for wich church is true, that comes down to the individual churchhouse and worship leader for that specific location and their teaching methods, i feel that the pastor at the church i attend is very good and gives as little as possible of his own opinion but rather makes certain that his sermons garantee that you'll be thinking hard all the way home, forming your own opinions and philosophys on the various topics that the bible addresses, i think he has a vary effective teaching method


alright jagd, on anger i mean the act of being enraged, i don't know the location of the verse but you should know what i'm talking about as for when jesus took straps of leather for a whip and run all the people out of the temple when they were making it a marketplace, he said it is ok to be angry, but not to let the sun set on your anger, wich nowadays i think would be not to get to bed without having let your anger subside and forgiven the offense, do you not agree that it's a good idea to let yor anger go before you go to sleep you'll find it easier to sleep, i know i do...


whoremongers, for elaberation http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exesearch_for_ (http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exesearch_for_texts_web1828=m&#111;nger) texts_web1828=mongermonger means lover whoremonger by the deffinition should be a pimp selling whore(s) so that's what i meant, but for whore lover i'll accept the same answer as adultry (most common use anyhow...) but i am certain that the new testament does adress adultery and with less than the death penalty, i'll have to do some searching... (edit; again not certain of the exact location but on the death penalty jesus said "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone", wich does rather effectively eliminate the death penalty as an availability for us to get the worst of our society out of it, i'll explain how this does not contradict the old testament in another post)


same for gays and gay mairriage i'm rather sure it is addressed in the new testament, i prefer to stick with the new testament as it applys more thuroughly since the final sacrifice/crucifiction of jesus wich did change a lot of the rules regarding penaltys (edit, see above parenthaseed[sp] note) and again btw it is mentioned more than any othe category of sin that sexual immorality is a sin and that it includes homosexuality...


and btw it was me that said that note on slavery, not sporty,but it's been years since i read that one, so i may be wrong, like i said "as i recall" but it is rather irrelavent these days as there is so little slavery going on,


and the statement that sporty made regarding how one man can sin against another was simply to address that you said sin is a state thatONLY exists between an individual and a deity, when it can be between two people, and that's all he was addressing...


ok i may have forgotten some point to be made in here but i'm getting tired and have more than enough to do tomorrow, so for now good night and merry christmas, this debate has been great fun

[Jagdpanzer]

ok, hebe, my analogie in no way suggests that the bible is less than perfect nor fallible, but the manner of teaching from one person to another and to another and so on it gets severely mixed up along the way, and again i ask you what verse says that we must prove our beliefs to one another, you'r getting repetitive, and as for wich church is true, that comes down to the individual churchhouse and worship leader for that specific location and their teaching methods, i feel that the pastor at the church i attend is very good and gives as little as possible of his own opinion but rather makes certain that his sermons garantee that you'll be thinking hard all the way home, forming your own opinions and philosophys on the various topics that the bible addresses, i think he has a vary effective teaching method


alright jagd, on anger i mean the act of being enraged, i don't know the location of the verse but you should know what i'm talking about as for when jesus took straps of leather for a whip and run all the people out of the temple when they were making it a marketplace, he said it is ok to be angry, but not to let the sun set on your anger, wich nowadays i think would be not to get to bed without having let your anger subside and forgiven the offense, do you not agree that it's a good idea to let yor anger go before you go to sleep you'll find it easier to sleep, i know i do...


whoremongers, for elaberation http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exesearch_for_ texts_web1828=monger (http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exesearch_for_texts_web1828=m&#111;nger)monger means lover whoremonger by the deffinition should be a pimp selling whore(s) so that's what i meant, but for whore lover i'll accept the same answer as adultry (most common use anyhow...) but i am certain that the new testament does adress adultery and with less than the death penalty, i'll have to do some searching... (edit; again not certain of the exact location but on the death penalty jesus said "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone", wich does rather effectively eliminate the death penalty as an availability for us to get the worst of our society out of it, i'll explain how this does not contradict the old testament in another post)


same for gays and gay mairriage i'm rather sure it is addressed in the new testament, i prefer to stick with the new testament as it applys more thuroughly since the final sacrifice/crucifiction of jesus wich did change a lot of the rules regarding penaltys (edit, see above parenthaseed[sp] note) and again btw it is mentioned more than any othe category of sin that sexual immorality is a sin and that it includes homosexuality...


and btw it was me that said that note on slavery, not sporty,but it's been years since i read that one, so i may be wrong, like i said "as i recall" but it is rather irrelavent these days as there is so little slavery going on,


and the statement that sporty made regarding how one man can sin against another was simply to address that you said sin is a state thatONLY exists between an individual and a deity, when it can be between two people, and that's all he was addressing...


ok i may have forgotten some point to be made in here but i'm getting tired and have more than enough to do tomorrow, so for now good night and merry christmas, this debate has been great fun





Well these are all interesting points, but the more I look at them the more it becomes obvious that they really are matters for internalchurch debate and are probably the reason there are so many churches around..Somebody must have gone to bed without getting a few things settled. but the debate itself dose not prove the infallibility of the bible it just proves that if you want to be a christian you got quite a lot to figure out before you can get any thing done. but it has been fun thats true.


Merry Christmass to you

[Gatormaker]

Religon...was created by MAN...


GOD....is eternal...





MERRY CHRISTMAS....





JD

[jackinzoar]

a texas politician was quoted on his views about gay marriage "I'm not against it ,I belive gays have the right to be just as misserable as the rest of us"

[Hebephrenia]

I've figured out who santa is...................It's.......It's Jack!

[S2LR]

and now for the question that you want answered and i assume you are talking about the triune godhead concept, they are one and the same, three parts to one god to perform three seperate jobs, all to accomplish the same goal, that is my belief, thatone is for each individual to figure out themselves really, the triune god concept can be debated infinately, several other details in the bible are intended for individual interpretation and not as incredibly significant





With all due respect, you haven't addressed any of the scriptural references I cited regarding the doctrine of God as taught in the Bible. It is quite clear what the Bible appears to teach...


You say "they are one and the same" in one sentence and thendivide the substance in the next. I'm confused. As a seeker of truth, what should I believe


Since you don't provide any scriptural references to support your God theology, I will go under the assumption that what you believe is simply an opinion formulated from various and sundry sources or the doctrines of men.


If you believe in the Bible, please provide scriptural references to support your beliefs...

[Jagdpanzer]

I've figured out who santa is...................It's.......It's Jack!


No he's not Santa heis that elf on the traveloicty commercials..~~~Don't forget your hat!smileys/smiley17.gif


cp

[sporty91]

and now for the question that you want answered and i assume you are talking about the triune godhead concept, they are one and the same, three parts to one god to perform three seperate jobs, all to accomplish the same goal, that is my belief, thatone is for each individual to figure out themselves really, the triune god concept can be debated infinately, several other details in the bible are intended for individual interpretation and not as incredibly significant





With all due respect, you haven't addressed any of the scriptural references I cited regarding the doctrine of God as taught in the Bible. It is quite clear what the Bible appears to teach...


You say "they are one and the same" in one sentence and thendivide the substance in the next. I'm confused. As a seeker of truth, what should I believe


Since you don't provide any scriptural references to support your God theology, I will go under the assumption that what you believe is simply an opinion formulated from various and sundry sources or the doctrines of men.


If you believe in the Bible, please provide scriptural references to support your beliefs...





Here you go.



<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Jhn 10:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=24&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#2 4)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=25></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/10/25.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=25&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#25)ht tp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=25&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2 5)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=25&amp;versi&#111;n=KJ V#25)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=25&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#25)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Jhn 10:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=25&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#2 5)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>J

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=Jagdpanzer]
Well both you guys proved my point again thought you made a valiant effort it was to no avail.. when contesting about how to be saved you quote the bible ad infinitem.. on these otherissues no such bible quotes appear in your responcesjust your oppinions of what most would admit are some rather thorny issues. I know for a fact the bible addresses some of them and the answers are not pretty. female subjecation (New testement) penelties for sexual immorality are all (old testement) jesus covered alot of ground but somehow missed that one in his contemplations. slavery...I won't even try and recall I'll just goe with the gospel according to sporty91 ; i recall the jist was that a slave owner was to treat the slaves as good as they treat themselves thats not even close. but I can see why you whant to soften up the church fathers when it comes to labor exploitation.
Ok now I will do your list (you don't mind if iI use your computer do you)
Adultery.
Lev 20:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#10) And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
well seems pretty invalid today guess Jesus thought so too.
Gay marrige
Lev 20:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Raise your hand if you want to help me get these gays in the ovens~smileys/smiley17.gif
And Jesus, your comment mmmm Jesus kinda silent on this one. probley because it was widley accepted in his day and a majority of people did not attach the same conotation to it as we do.. thats just speculation on my part though.
WAR; the reason I kinda like god
Exd 15:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd015.html#3) The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name.
This might have something to do with that sword jesus has in his mouth at the end of the book...but hey what do I know
premarital sex:
like this kind ;Lev 19:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev019.html#20) And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that [is] a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
damn no wonder Slavery was so popular in the south.
Lev 20:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev020.html#27) A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them. I think my wife has this problem I wonder if where I go to get a stoning.

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 ="table_bible"><T><T><T><T><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57 ="td_bible_6_s"><NOBR><A name=13></A><A title="Treasury of &#083;cripture Knowledge" hre

[Jagdpanzer]

Wellits your interpretation that seed is unfertilized eggs....you believe what you suits you.


killing the child is certainly not unprecedented;
<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>2Sa 12:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=2Sa&amp;chapter=12&amp;verse=14&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#1 4)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also [that is] born unto thee shall surely die.</TD></TR></T></TABLE>


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

You may be of the opinion that jesus was a great advocate of mosaic law but he seems to have ignored most of it.. And if jesus was god and god said make no images why dose your church have pictures of jesus in it


cp

[sporty91]

Wellits your interpretation that seed is unfertilized eggs....you believe what you suits you.


killing the child is certainly not unprecedented;
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 ="table_bible"><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68 ="td_bible_verse_ing"><NOBR>2Sa 12:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=2Sa&amp;chapter=12&amp;verse=14&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#1 4)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="parSym"></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="td_bible_text">Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also [that is] born unto thee shall surely die.</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>


cp





This is a easy one.
<DIV =words-list>Job 1:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Job/Job001.html#21) And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

<DIV =words-list>Now Job had it right, seeeing how God is the only one that can give life he has the right to take it. Not man or woman that wants to kill a baby because they forgot there birth control.

[sporty91]

You may be of the opinion that jesus was a great advocate of mosaic law but he seems to have ignored most of it.. And if jesus was god and god said make no images why dose your church have pictures of jesus in it


cp



<DIV ="words-list">Lev 26:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev026.html#1) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.
<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image, I don't know any christians that think the images of Christ they have in the church can do anything.
<DIV ="words-list">They are only to remind us of what he done for us. We all have pics of loved ones that are not with us anymore that does not mean we think the pics are them or that they can do anything for us. Merry ChristmasEdited by: sporty91

[sporty91]

Jagdpanzer, I asked where you saw abortion menitioned in the verses YOU quoted You have not answered this. The reason is their is no mention of it. What say you





Well these are all interesting points, but the more I look at them the more it becomes obvious that they really are matters for internalchurch debate and are probably the reason there are so many churches around..Somebody must have gone to bed without getting a few things settled. but the debate itself dose not prove the infallibility of the bible it just proves that if you want to be a christian you got quite a lot to figure out before you can get any thing done. but it has been fun thats true.


So your saying that you have to know everything before you can be a Christain Not what the bible says. The men Jesus chose to be nearest to him was not the men of the church. They were plain, working men not the scolars you seem to think we need to be.Edited by: sporty91

[Jagdpanzer]

<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image, I don't know any christians that think the images of Christ they have in the church can do anything.
<DIV ="words-list">They are only to remind us of what he done for us. We all have pics of loved ones that are not with us anymore that does not mean we think the pics are them or that they can do anything for us. Merry Christmas





Well this is an interesting opinion and if you were the PopeI suppose it would mean something.


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

Jagdpanzer, I asked where you saw abortion menitioned in the verses YOU quoted You have not answered this. The reason is their is no mention of it. What say you
<DIV ="words-">KJV English Concordance for "abortion"
<DIV ="words-sub">Learn More About Our Word Search Tools (http://blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.plword=aborti&#111;n#about1)
<DIV ="words-desc-center">Sorry! the word abortion doesn't occur in the KJV.
<DIV ="words-desc-center">
<DIV ="words-desc-center">Well I give in on this one. It seems God dose not know about abortion. So I guess the human race is out in the cold when it comes to procreation.
<DIV ="words-desc-center">cpEdited by: Jagdpanzer

[Jagdpanzer]

<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image, I don't know any Christians that think the images of Christ they have in the church can do anything.
<DIV ="words-list">They are only to remind us of what he done for us. We all have pics of loved ones that are not with us anymore that does not mean we think the pics are them or that they can do anything for us. Merry Christmas





Well this is an interesting opinion and if you were the PopeI suppose it would mean something.


cp





And being a registered Catholic I'm pretty sure I will be pope before you.


cp

[sporty91]

<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image, I don't know any christians that think the images of Christ they have in the church can do anything.
<DIV ="words-list">They are only to remind us of what he done for us. We all have pics of loved ones that are not with us anymore that does not mean we think the pics are them or that they can do anything for us. Merry Christmas





Well this is an interesting opinion and if you were the PopeI suppose it would mean something.


cp





This means something because it came from the bible not because I said it. As far as I can see the bible is probably more important than the pope. Nice try but that is a cop out.

[sporty91]

<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image, I don't know any Christians that think the images of Christ they have in the church can do anything.
<DIV ="words-list">They are only to remind us of what he done for us. We all have pics of loved ones that are not with us anymore that does not mean we think the pics are them or that they can do anything for us. Merry Christmas





Well this is an interesting opinion and if you were the PopeI suppose it would mean something.


cp





And being a registered Catholic I'm pretty sure I will be pope before you.


cp





I'm a ordained layminister but that is beside the point. the bible is the word of God it tellsyou to study to show that you are aproved. Not let the pope study to show you are aproved. So the pope is not going to save you only your relatitionship with Jesus can do this. I will post a verse to back this upshortly.



<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 ="table_bible"><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68 ="td_bible_verse_ing"><NOBR>2Ti 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=2Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=15&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#15 )</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="parSym"></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="td_bible_text">


Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.





This one shows that you have to study for you, not depend on someone else. </TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>1Ti 2:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=3&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#3)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=4></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Ti/2/4.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=4&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#4)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=4&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#4)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=4&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV# 4)<A title="Dicti&#111;nary Aids" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;

[Jagdpanzer]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="95%" align=center>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =bold>sporty91 wrote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" bgColor=#d8d8d8>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =text>
<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image, I don't know any Christians that think the images of Christ they have in the church can do anything.
<DIV ="words-list">They are only to remind us of what he done for us. We all have pics of loved ones that are not with us anymore that does not mean we think the pics are them or that they can do anything for us. Merry Christmas</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE>


Still looks like sporty's opinion to me.


cp

[Hebephrenia]

[QUOTE=hwrogers]


.....teaching from one person to another and to another and so on it gets severely mixed up along the way, and again i ask you what verse says that we must prove our beliefs to one another, you'r getting repetitive, and as for wich church is true, that comes down to the individual churchhouse and worship leader for that specific location and their teaching methods,








My, my; there you have it!! You've managed todoo-doo in your own mess kit by finally taking a stand. Look at your post underlined above. So what we can say is thattheBible is a free-for-all and everybody is right, and everyone gets to make their own interpretationdepending on your local pastor or church!How messed up is thatsmileys/smiley5.gif You have absolutely no credibility at this point because you are no more correct than the next church two blocks that teaches dramatically different doctrineby your own admission, so how can wetake you even remotely seriousCongratulations, you are now no differentthan the people who still believe that the moon is made of green cheese. Your post aboveis a mass of confusion, which is in direct opposite from what it says in your own Bible (I Cor 14:33). Now, you must either resolve your covoluted belief system or abandon your belief. I vote you should abandon your belief and look for a church that at least is consistent withyour Bible. Sheesh...... Anything you postafter this is nothing more than your opinion---something that's never held up in any debate. You're out dude, take a seat in the auditorium....

[sporty91]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="95%" align=center><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD ="bold">sporty91 wrote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" bgColor=#d8d8d8><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD ="text">
<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image, I don't know any Christians that think the images of Christ they have in the church can do anything.
<DIV ="words-list">They are only to remind us of what he done for us. We all have pics of loved ones that are not with us anymore that does not mean we think the pics are them or that they can do anything for us. Merry Christmas</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>


Still looks like sporty's opinion to me.


cp



<DIV ="words-list">Lev 26:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev026.html#1) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.
<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">
<DIV ="words-list">Now does this look like my opinion the word says not have somethingTO BOW DOWN UNTO IT. The word does not say not to have pics or representations of the Lord. Not opinon just the word. Nice try but again a cop out.

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=hwrogers]


.....teaching from one person to another and to another and so on it gets severely mixed up along the way, and again i ask you what verse says that we must prove our beliefs to one another, you'r getting repetitive, and as for wich church is true, that comes down to the individual churchhouse and worship leader for that specific location and their teaching methods,








My, my; there you have it!! You've managed todoo-doo in your own mess kit by finally taking a stand. Look at your post underlined above. So what we can say is thattheBible is a free-for-all and everybody is right, and everyone gets to make their own interpretationdepending on your local pastor or church!How messed up is thatsmileys/smiley5.gif You have absolutely no credibility at this point because you are no more correct than the next church two blocks that teaches dramatically different doctrineby your own admission, so how can wetake you even remotely seriousCongratulations, you are now no differentthan the people who still believe that the moon is made of green cheese. Your post aboveis a mass of confusion, which is in direct opposite from what it says in your own Bible (I Cor 14:33). Now, you must either resolve your covoluted belief system or abandon your belief. I vote you should abandon your belief and look for a church that at least is consistent withyour Bible. Sheesh...... Anything you postafter this is nothing more than your opinion---something that's never held up in any debate. You're out dude, take a seat in the auditorium....





Who should sit down The man that is defending something he belives in or the person that by their own words does not belive that God even exists. Yet quotes bible verses to make points if I don't belive in some thing it does not bother me that some ones else does. However you seem intent on trying to prove us wrong. Could it be that you are bothered by the Holy Spirit, see the reason Christainanty is under attack is it is the only true way to be saved. Jesus said it don't be mad at me.

[Hebephrenia]

Sporty, you should have a seat next to him since it appears that you conceded points regarding the godhead earlier in this forum that S2LR posed. Your are as confused and bewildered as poor slobbering HW. In fact, do you guys even agree with each other, or does your respective pastors differ in their interpretation of the Bible

[Jagdpanzer]

Lev 26:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev026.html#1) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, / neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.


You'll notice that this is a two part sentance..pt1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, this means DO NOT DO IT. the next part is an elaboration and or illustrative... no, all that crap (Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image ect .. ect..),you put into it is youropinion and thats pretty clear. And counting up some 10,000 yrs oftheological exploration on the part of learned men,the opinion of a self proclaimed lay-minister (for lay minister, read exploiter of the extremely naive and gullible ie;teenagers) dosen't realy amount to a tinkers damn.I'm not dodging or copping out or any other thing. I just didn't think I was going to have to put to fine a point on it.


cp


cp

[S2LR]

Now right out of Jesus' mouth He and the Father are one. Here is the thing you are looking for another man to tell you what is right, Jesus is plain on this it is up to you. Have a blessed day.and merry Chirstmas.

Sporty, you seem to be retracting on your own admission that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct. You did concede on this fact did you not Do I need to quote you in a previous post that you gave earlier on this forum

John 10:30 is hardly convincing in supporting your claim that God the Father and Christ are the same person. You should have read further in the Gospel of John to get the explanation from Christ himself. John 17:11, 21-23 makes the matter quite clear as to what he meant. Christ is saying that his Father and him are one IN PURPOSE not substance. In his prayer to the Father in behalf of his apostles, Christ says "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one</span></span></span> (http://&#115;criptures.lds.org/en/john/17/22a), even as we are one</span>".</font> It would be silly to suggest that his disciples jump into one massive lump of flesh or whatever in order to be "one".</font>..smileys/smiley5.gif.

On this concept of "being one", the admonitions of Paul to the ancient saints as given in Romans 12:4-5, 16 also supports what Christ was attempting to teach his disciples...that they should be one in purpose, unity, faith, belief, etc., not substance.

You're going to have to do better to convince me that the Bible teaches the fallacious concept of the trinity being one God in substance. Frankly, I just don't see it...
</font>

</span></span> (http://&#115;criptures.lds.org/en/john/17/22b)

[S2LR]

Since it's Christmas Eve, here's an appropriate passage to share, given the topic at hand...

</font><div><div><div id="luke/2/14">"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the b@be wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger</span>. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest</span>, and on earth peace, good will toward men". Luke 2:10-14 (emphasis mine)

How wonderful it is...here we have Christ the Lord lying in a manger yet the angles are giving Glory to God in the highest. Yet again another passage of scripture where the Bible teaches that God the Father and Christ are indeed separate and distinct...</font>smileys/smiley4.gif



</div></div></div>

Edited by: S2LR

[Hebephrenia]

Oh, and Sporty, one more thing...... You never did address the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7: 55-56.......""But he being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of god, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the RIGHT HAND OF GOD." What's up with that if they were three in one Is Jesus having a depersonalization experience here NO! They appear to be distinct individuals. Address the scripture, please. Oh, and I can quote out of your book anytime I want, even if I don't believe in it to show YOU that you don't follow your own book. That comment by you has grown quite tiresome. Address Stephen's stoning! Remember that if you can't resolve this according to your belief, you have to leave your faith and consider your pastorand congregation as misguided souls.Take this to your weekly Bible study and lay it on your bretheren. If one doctrine is wrong, then how can you have confidence in any of it

[sporty91]

Now right out of Jesus' mouth He and the Father are one. Here is the thing you are looking for another man to tell you what is right, Jesus is plain on this it is up to you. Have a blessed day.and merry Chirstmas.




Sporty, you seem to be retracting on your own admission that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct. You did concede on this fact did you not Do I need to quote you in a previous post that you gave earlier on this forum

John 10:30 is hardly convincing in supporting your claim that God the Father and Christ are the same person. You should have read further in the Gospel of John to get the explanation from Christ himself. John 17:11, 21-23 makes the matter quite clear as to what he meant. Christ is saying that his Father and him are one IN PURPOSE not substance. In his prayer to the Father in behalf of his apostles, Christ says "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one[/url], even as we are one". It would be silly to suggest that his disciples jump into one massive lump of flesh or whatever in order to be "one"...smileys/smiley5.gif.

On this concept of "being one", the admonitions of Paul to the ancient saints as given in Romans 12:4-5, 16 also supports what Christ was attempting to teach his disciples...that they should be one in purpose, unity, faith, belief, etc., not substance.

You're going to have to do better to convince me that the Bible teaches the fallacious concept of the trinity being one God in substance. Frankly, I just don't see it...


[url="http://&#115;criptures.lds.org/en/john/17/22b"] (http://&#115;criptures.lds.org/en/john/17/22a)


Again Jesus said it not me. You are trying to limit God to what you can understand fully, I said before they are three beings but he is God he can do any thing he wants if he want to be three or one are you going to tell him he can't Where were you when he laid the foundation of the earth. As you said you can't see it that does not mean he can't do it!

[Jagdpanzer]

CanGod make a rock so big he can't move it


Just thought it appropriate to inserta littlegrade school theology right here.


!lol


cp

[Hebephrenia]

Do you understand the godhead, yes or no Or is it some big "mystery"---which is nothing but a cop out. You have to understand the nature of God to have a relationship with him don't you How casually you dismiss the comments above by saying that God can do anything he wants. How convenient. I think you're in a serious bind and you can't do shinola about it. Prove us wrong with your scriptures. You can't. The scriptures teach something different than you believe. Your foundation is crumbling. Are you going down with a sinking ship

[Hebephrenia]

I suppose that this should be the symbol for yours and HW's beliefs. Everything is some riddle.Reminds me of when the Lord told Job, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge" (Job 38:2). You freaking need to go back to school on your own book.


uploads/Hebephrenia/2006-12-24_233427_riddler.jpg

[sporty91]

Do you understand the godhead, yes or no Or is it some big "mystery"---which is nothing but a cop out. You have to understand the nature of God to have a relationship with him don't you How casually you dismiss the comments above by saying that God can do anything he wants. How convenient. I think you're in a serious bind and you can't do shinola about it. Prove us wrong with your scriptures. You can't. The scriptures teach something different than you believe. Your foundation is crumbling. Are you going down with a sinking ship






<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Job 38:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Job&amp;chapter=38&amp;verse=1&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#1)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top>¶</TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=2></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Job/38/2.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Job&amp;chapter=38&amp;verse=2&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2)http ://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Job&amp;chapter=38&amp;verse=2&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Job&amp;chapter=38&amp;verse=2&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #2)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Job&amp;chapter=38&amp;verse=2&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Job 38:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Job&amp;chapter=38&amp;verse=2&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#2)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=3></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Job/38/3.html)<A title="C&#111;ncordance and Hebrew/Greek" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Job&amp;chapter=38&amp;verse=3&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#3" target="_blank"><IMG height=17 alt="C&#111;ncordance and Hebrew/Greek" hspace=1 src="http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif" width=17 align=bottom vspace=

[S2LR]

Again Jesus said it not me. You are trying to limit God to what you can understand fully, I said before they are three beings but he is God he can do any thing he wants if he want to be three or one are you going to tell him he can't Where were you when he laid the foundation of the earth. As you said you can't see it that does not mean he can't do it!

Is that the best you can do...to say that I'm attempting to limit God Where did I make such an implication That is your erroneous conclusion. I'm just making you aware on what the Bible teaches concerning the nature of God. I'm making you aware on what Christ teaches in the scriptures on the same subject. In the words of Paul..."For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you</span>." Acts 17:23 (emphasis mine)

I believe using Occam's Razor is quite applicable here in this argument. This "lex parsimoniae" states that given two equally valid explanations for a phenomenon, one should embrace the less complicated formulation. In other words, the simplest explanation tends to be the right explanation. Now, what's more probable That God and Christ are the same person, jumping in and out of each other like some mysterious creature which violates the laws of Physics or that they are two glorified and perfected entities that are separate and distinct I think the answer is quite obvious...

Again, as stated in John 17:3..."And this is life eternal</span> (http://&#115;criptures.lds.org/en/john/17/3a)</span> (http://&#115;criptures.lds.org/en/john/17/3b), that they might know</span> thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (emphasis mine). Christ says that it is eternal life for us to KNOW God. Why How can you have faith in someone you don't know How can you believe in someone you don't understand How can you pray to someone you can't comprehend

Yes, you're right...Christ did say it! He said it quite clearly in the New Testament. He spoke the plain and precious truth as taught in the Bible concerning the nature of him and his Father...that they are separate and distinct entities who are one in glory, might, and purpose!

You, on the other hand, are found wanting in defending the fallacious doctrine of the Triune "one in substance" God...</font>


Edited by: S2LR

[S2LR]

Do you understand the godhead, yes or no Or is it some big "mystery"---which is nothing but a cop out. You have to understand the nature of God to have a relationship with him don't you How casually you dismiss the comments above by saying that God can do anything he wants. How convenient. I think you're in a serious bind and you can't do shinola about it. Prove us wrong with your scriptures. You can't. The scriptures teach something different than you believe. Your foundation is crumbling. Are you going down with a sinking ship

AMEN!

[Jagdpanzer]

Most people think it's one of these guys.uploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_002258_krishna_Small.jpg uploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_002005_god.jpg

[Jagdpanzer]

uploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_002455_img015.jpguploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_002526_jesus-4kids250.jpguploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_002556_mst294.jpg

[S2LR]

CanGod make a rock so big he can't move it</font>


Just thought it appropriate to inserta littlegrade school theology right here.</font>


!lol</font>


cp</font>

Hehe...very good...smileys/smiley2.gif.

Not to fan the flames of this debate, it does raise a larger question. If God can do everything, can he bring sinners back into his presence Doesn't he love us all Doesn't he want to save us all What's preventing him from saving all humankind...the epitomy of his creation as asserted in Heb 2:6-7 Hmmmmm...</font>

[S2LR]

uploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_002455_img015.jpguploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_002526_jesus-4kids250.jpguploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_002556_mst294.jpg

Yes, good point.

They do have one thing in common...they have BODY, PARTS, and PASSIONS!!

[sporty91]

Do you understand the godhead, yes or no Or is it some big "mystery"---which is nothing but a cop out. You have to understand the nature of God to have a relationship with him don't you How casually you dismiss the comments above by saying that God can do anything he wants. How convenient. I think you're in a serious bind and you can't do shinola about it. Prove us wrong with your scriptures. You can't. The scriptures teach something different than you believe. Your foundation is crumbling. Are you going down with a sinking ship


Foundation crumbling not a chance as Jesus is my foundation.


here read this.



<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Mat 19:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Mat&amp;chapter=19&amp;verse=25&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#2 5)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=26></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/19/26.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Mat&amp;chapter=19&amp;verse=26&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#26)ht tp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Mat&amp;chapter=19&amp;verse=26&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2 6)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Mat&amp;chapter=19&amp;verse=26&amp;versi&#111;n=KJ V#26)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Mat&amp;chapter=19&amp;verse=26&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#26)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Mat 19:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Mat&amp;chapter=19&amp;verse=26&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#2 6)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.</TD></TR></T></TABLE>


So the bible says things which we can not do or understand, sounds like what I have been saying. So I am to belive if yall can't understand it then it is not true So going by yalls thinking if a person does not know every detail about the subject he or she is studying then the subject is not true or should not be trusted in Quick someone tell the hospitals to shut down as any Doctor will tell you they don't know it all. If they di

[sporty91]

CanGod make a rock so big he can't move it


Just thought it appropriate to inserta littlegrade school theology right here.


!lol


cp




Hehe...very good...smileys/smiley2.gif.

Not to fan the flames of this debate, it does raise a larger question. If God can do everything, can he bring sinners back into his presence Doesn't he love us all Doesn't he want to save us all What's preventing him from saving all humankind...the epitomy of his creation as asserted in Heb 2:6-7 Hmmmmm...






<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>1Ti 2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=4&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#4)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=5></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Ti/2/5.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=5&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#5)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=5&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#5)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_hymns9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/images.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=5&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#5) http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=5&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV# 5)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=5&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#5)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>1Ti 2:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=1Ti&amp;chapter=2&amp;verse=5&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#5)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=6></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Ti/2/6.html)<A title="C&#111;ncordance and Heb

[sporty91]

Lev 26:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev026.html#1) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, / neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.


You'll notice that this is a two part sentance..pt1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, this means DO NOT DO IT. the next part is an elaboration and or illustrative... no, all that crap (Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image ect .. ect..),you put into it is youropinion and thats pretty clear. And counting up some 10,000 yrs oftheological exploration on the part of learned men,the opinion of a self proclaimed lay-minister (for lay minister, read exploiter of the extremely naive and gullible ie;teenagers) dosen't realy amount to a tinkers damn.I'm not dodging or copping out or any other thing. I just didn't think I was going to have to put to fine a point on it.


cp


cp





So people making the what nots that is on your grandmas cabinets are making idols I don't think so the sentance is plain the making of or standing up of idols are wrong. I have a necklace hanging in my truck that looks like a old 4 sided nail with John 3;16 in one side to help me remember to keep my cool. I don't pray to it I know it has no power to do anything. It is a reminder thats all. Am I worshiping a idol to you BTW I don't work with teens I teach the adult sunday school class and help the pastor to vist the sick and needy. Get a english teacher to diagram that sentance for you they will tell you the same thing.Edited by: sporty91

[sporty91]

Do you understand the godhead, yes or no Or is it some big "mystery"---which is nothing but a cop out. You have to understand the nature of God to have a relationship with him don't you How casually you dismiss the comments above by saying that God can do anything he wants. How convenient. I think you're in a serious bind and you can't do shinola about it. Prove us wrong with your scriptures. You can't. The scriptures teach something different than you believe. Your foundation is crumbling. Are you going down with a sinking ship


Heres a point yall have not thought ofJesus said he must go to send the Holy Spirit, looks like two of the three must be in heaven. Here areverses to back this up.



<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 ="table_bible"><T><T><T><T><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68 ="td_bible_verse_ing"><NOBR>Jhn 16:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=16&amp;verse=5&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#5)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="parSym">¶</TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="td_bible_text">But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57 ="td_bible_6_s"><NOBR><A name=6></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/16/6.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=16&amp;verse=6&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#6)http ://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=16&amp;verse=6&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#6)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=16&amp;verse=6&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #6)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=16&amp;verse=6&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#6)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68 ="td_bible_verse_ing"><NOBR>Jhn 16:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=16&amp;verse=6&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#6)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="parSym"></TD>
<TD vAlign=top ="td_bible_text">But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57 ="td_bible_6_s"><NOBR><A name=7></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/16/7.html)<A title="C&#111;ncordance and Hebrew/Greek" href="ht

[hwrogers]

[QUOTE=hwrogers]


.....teaching from one person to another and to another and so on it gets severely mixed up along the way, and again i ask you what verse says that we must prove our beliefs to one another, you'r getting repetitive, and as for wich church is true, that comes down to the individual churchhouse and worship leader for that specific location and their teaching methods,








My, my; there you have it!! You've managed todoo-doo in your own mess kit by finally taking a stand. Look at your post underlined above. So what we can say is thattheBible is a free-for-all and everybody is right, and everyone gets to make their own interpretationdepending on your local pastor or church!How messed up is thatsmileys/smiley5.gif You have absolutely no credibility at this point because you are no more correct than the next church two blocks that teaches dramatically different doctrineby your own admission, so how can wetake you even remotely seriousCongratulations, you are now no differentthan the people who still believe that the moon is made of green cheese. Your post aboveis a mass of confusion, which is in direct opposite from what it says in your own Bible (I Cor 14:33). Now, you must either resolve your covoluted belief system or abandon your belief. I vote you should abandon your belief and look for a church that at least is consistent withyour Bible. Sheesh...... Anything you postafter this is nothing more than your opinion---something that's never held up in any debate. You're out dude, take a seat in the auditorium....


\


my credibility stands true, the credibility of your literacy and abilaty to read is what's severely compromised, read the entirety of the section you quoted several times, all of it, and you will see that i do not say that any church can be right/wrong at the same time, what i said was that there are some that are true and many that are false, within every denomination. go back to highschool english for cryen' out loud


and to s2lr, you think that man's "laws" of physics aply to god you have shown yourself a fool, pure and simple, if god created the universe and all things then he is capable of whatever he wants to do regardless of your laws of physics.


and i think sporty has put it thuroughly in plain english what he and i have agreed on this whole time, while i don't know him well enough to say we agree on each and every thing in the bible i am certain that it will boil down to very simple differences in interpretation, wich would be the human element, we are not supposed to get it all, we can not even scratch the surface, no number of us could ever dream of it, we may know a lot, but never all, that right is for god alone. this debate is done

[Jagdpanzer]

Lev 26:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev026.html#1) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, / neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.


You'll notice that this is a two part sentance..pt1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, this means DO NOT DO IT. the next part is an elaboration and or illustrative... no, all that crap (Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image ect .. ect..),you put into it is youropinion and thats pretty clear. And counting up some 10,000 yrs oftheological exploration on the part of learned men,the opinion of a self proclaimed lay-minister (for lay minister, read exploiter of the extremely naive and gullible ie;teenagers) dosen't realy amount to a tinkers damn.I'm not dodging or copping out or any other thing. I just didn't think I was going to have to put to fine a point on it.


cp


cp





So people making the what nots that is on your grandmas cabinets are making idols I don't think so the sentance is plain the making of or standing up of idols are wrong. I have a necklace hanging in my truck that looks like a old 4 sided nail with John 3;16 in one side to help me remember to keep my cool. I don't pray to it I know it has no power to do anything. It is a reminder thats all. Am I worshiping a idol to you BTW I don't work with teens I teach the adult sunday school class and help the pastor to vist the sick and needy. Get a english teacher to diagram that sentance for you they will tell you the same thing.





uploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_062946_jesus-4kids250.jpg


Your lay- minister school must have been somewhat strange if you think this is a whatnot on a coo coo clock or a cut nail.


cp

[Jagdpanzer]

well that rather long winded sermon on the trinity may very well be somewhat accurate...then again it may not as it the theogy that it is founded on created bya certain bishopin the 4th century. he may have been right or mayb the stuff he discarded my trump the whole smash.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr&#111;ntline/shows/religi&#111;n/story/art/19a.gif
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr&#111;ntline/shows/religi&#111;n/story/art/19b.gif





http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr&#111;ntline/shows/religi&#111;n/story/art/t23.gif (http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/)


In December 1945 an Arab peasant made an astonishing archeological discovery in Upper Egypt. Rumors obscured the circumstances of this find--perhaps because the discovery was accidental, and its sale on the black market illegal. For years even the identity of the discoverer remained unknown. One rumor held that he was a blood avenger; another, that he had made the find near the town of Naj 'Hammádì at the Jabal al-Tárif, a mountain honeycombed with more than 150 caves. Originally natural, some of these caves were cut and painted and used as grave sites as early as the sixth dynasty, some 4,300 years ago.


Thirty years later the discoverer himself, Muhammad 'AlÃ* al-Sammán; told what happened. Shortly before he and his brothers avenged their father's murder in a blood feud, they had saddled their camels and gone out to the Jabal to dig for sabakh, a soft soil they used to fertilize their crops. Digging around a massive boulder, they hit a red earthenware jar, almost a meter high. Muhammad 'AlÃ* hesitated to break the jar, considering that a jinn, or spirit, might live inside. But realizing that it might also contain gold, he raised his mattock, smashed the jar, and discovered inside thirteen papyrus books, bound in leather. Returning to his home in al-Qasr, Muhammad 'All dumped the books and loose papyrus leaves on the straw piled on the ground next to the oven. Muhammad's mother, 'Umm-Ahmad, admits that she burned much of the papyrus in the oven along with the straw she used to kindle the fire.


A few weeks later, as Muhammad 'AlÃ* tells it, he and his brothers avenged their father's death by murdering Ahmed Isma'il. Their mother had warned her sons to keep their mattocks sharp: when they learned that their father's enemy was nearby, the brothers seized the opportunity, "hacked off his limbs . . . ripped out his heart, and devoured it among them, as the ultimate act of blood revenge."


Fearing that the police investigating the murder would search his house and discover the books, Muhammad 'AlÃ* asked the priest, al-Qummus Basiliyus Abd al-Masih, to keep one or more for him. During the time that Muhammad 'AlÃ* and his brothers were being interrogated for murder, Raghib, a local history teacher, had seen one of the books, and suspected that it had value. Having received one from al-Qummus Basiliyus, Raghib sent it to a friend in Cairo to find out its worth.


Sold on the black market through antiquities dealers in Cairo, the manuscripts soon attracted the attention of officials of the Egyptian government. Through circumstances of high drama, as we shall see, they bought one and confiscated ten and a half of the thirteen leather-bound books, called codices, and deposi

[Hebephrenia]

My gosh, sporty, why don't you highlight your entire blue letter bible---that should coverabout anything that comes up! I'm fatigued just reading your post, although your scriptues definitely support your theory-----to create more confusion!!! What a masterful ace in the hole to play----everything is incomprehensible. Doesn't sound like what Christ taughtto thepeople, otherwise why would we even have religion to begin with if we can't understand it


HW, I give you aF on your response. It is a sophomoric attempt to skirt the issue. In fact, I read your post several times in detail to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting anything, and underlined YOUR words, not my interpretation. Now you are saying that there are "some thatare true" and "many that are false withinevery denomination". What the crap does that mean A denomination is the alignment with a certain belief. Which one's are true and which ones are false What if they contradict each other regarding saving doctrines(which they do).We are back to square one---which one is the right one You'v folded, bro. I can see why you want to get out of the"debate" (really just opinions being provided by you) since you've takensuch a beating. BTW: What does my english have to do with anythingI aced all my english classes in college. I didn't think it was that badsmileys/smiley6.gif


I have one last question:Which is the correct version of Saul'sconversion---Acts9:7, or Acts 22:9Be careful not to put your head into the chopping block here. Both you guys have had the propensity to tinkle in your own canteen in this forum and then complained aboutbeing forced to drink....


Wait! Ialready have the answer!!-------IT'S A MYSTERY----incomprehensible.I've finally got it!!I've just got to figure out how to cut and paste those coolblue letter scriptures that sporty does so that I can randomly pull stuff out of my rumpus that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand to make it "incomprehensible". How coolwill that be

[sporty91]

My gosh, sporty, why don't you highlight your entire blue letter bible---that should coverabout anything that comes up! I'm fatigued just reading your post, although your scriptues definitely support your theory-----to create more confusion!!! What a masterful ace in the hole to play----everything is incomprehensible. Doesn't sound like what Christ taughtto thepeople, otherwise why would we even have religion to begin with if we can't understand it


HW, I give you aF on your response. It is a sophomoric attempt to skirt the issue. In fact, I read your post several times in detail to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting anything, and underlined YOUR words, not my interpretation. Now you are saying that there are "some thatare true" and "many that are false withinevery denomination". What the crap does that mean A denomination is the alignment with a certain belief. Which one's are true and which ones are false What if they contradict each other regarding saving doctrines(which they do).We are back to square one---which one is the right one You'v folded, bro. I can see why you want to get out of the"debate" (really just opinions being provided by you) since you've takensuch a beating. BTW: What does my english have to do with anythingI aced all my english classes in college. I didn't think it was that badsmileys/smiley6.gif


I have one last question:Which is the correct version of Saul'sconversion---Acts9:7, or Acts 22:9Be careful not to put your head into the chopping block here. Both you guys have had the propensity to tinkle in your own canteen in this forum and then complained aboutbeing forced to drink....


Wait! Ialready have the answer!!-------IT'S A MYSTERY----incomprehensible.I've finally got it!!I've just got to figure out how to cut and paste those coolblue letter scriptures that sporty does so that I can randomly pull stuff out of my rumpus that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand to make it "incomprehensible". How coolwill that be











Well I have been accused of not being able to use and quote the word in other posts so make up your mind. The study bible I usesays this, DID NOT HEAR THE VOICE seems to contraict 9:7, where Luke records that they did hear the voice. Actually, the verses contain different grammatical constructions, which say the same thing. The companions of Paul heard the sound of the voice, but did not discern words with understanding. Look it up for yourself the text says the same yet it was interpreted two different ways. Now what I've said about studying the word for yourself should take on new meaning here. Now I have looked up the words used in the original text and it says the same thing so now look for yourself. You will need to find something else to stump me on but it was a good try.


I just need to add one more thing you hung all you confidance on the 1611 KJV of the bible now it seems that by doing that you have missed a very simple differance in the word if you had studyed the word at all, this would have been very easy to find the truth. However you have choosen to accept the KJV as the only bible. You have choose to belive other men over the way it really is. So in all your wisdom you have not check your homework. Very slopy!Edited by: sporty91

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=Jagdpanzer]


well that rather long winded sermon on the trinity may very well be somewhat accurate...then again it may not as it the theogy that it is founded on created bya certain bishopin the 4th century. he may have been right or mayb the stuff he discarded my trump the whole smash.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr&#111;ntline/shows/religi&#111;n/story/art/19a.gif
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr&#111;ntline/shows/religi&#111;n/story/art/19b.gif





http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr&#111;ntline/shows/religi&#111;n/story/art/t23.gif (http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/)


In December 1945 an Arab peasant made an astonishing archeological discovery in Upper Egypt. Rumors obscured the circumstances of this find--perhaps because the discovery was accidental, and its sale on the black market illegal. For years even the identity of the discoverer remained unknown. One rumor held that he was a blood avenger; another, that he had made the find near the town of Naj 'Hammádì at the Jabal al-Tárif, a mountain honeycombed with more than 150 caves. Originally natural, some of these caves were cut and painted and used as grave sites as early as the sixth dynasty, some 4,300 years ago.


Thirty years later the discoverer himself, Muhammad 'AlÃ* al-Sammán; told what happened. Shortly before he and his brothers avenged their father's murder in a blood feud, they had saddled their camels and gone out to the Jabal to dig for sabakh, a soft soil they used to fertilize their crops. Digging around a massive boulder, they hit a red earthenware jar, almost a meter high. Muhammad 'AlÃ* hesitated to break the jar, considering that a jinn, or spirit, might live inside. But realizing that it might also contain gold, he raised his mattock, smashed the jar, and discovered inside thirteen papyrus books, bound in leather. Returning to his home in al-Qasr, Muhammad 'All dumped the books and loose papyrus leaves on the straw piled on the ground next to the oven. Muhammad's mother, 'Umm-Ahmad, admits that she burned much of the papyrus in the oven along with the straw she used to kindle the fire.


A few weeks later, as Muhammad 'AlÃ* tells it, he and his brothers avenged their father's death by murdering Ahmed Isma'il. Their mother had warned her sons to keep their mattocks sharp: when they learned that their father's enemy was nearby, the brothers seized the opportunity, "hacked off his limbs . . . ripped out his heart, and devoured it among them, as the ultimate act of blood revenge."


Fearing that the police investigating the murder would search his house and discover the books, Muhammad 'AlÃ* asked the priest, al-Qummus Basiliyus Abd al-Masih, to keep one or more for him. During the time that Muhammad 'AlÃ* and his brothers were being interrogated for murder, Raghib, a local history teacher, had seen one of the books, and suspected that it had value. Having received one from al-Qummus Basiliyus, Raghib sent it to a friend in Cairo to find out its worth.


Sold on the black market through antiquities dealers in Cairo, the manuscripts soon attracted the attention of officials of the Egyptian government. Through circumstances of high drama, as we shall see, they bought one and confiscated ten and a half of the thirteen leather-bound books, called

[hwrogers]

my response means exactly what it says, i wasn't even metaphorical, you get the f, again i say read it again and go back to highschool english, sleeping with the teacher for A+ grades don't count here dude,


now for your question,


acts 9;7 the men traveling with saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.


acts 22;9 my companions saw the light, but they diid not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.


ok between these two specific verses the only difference i see is that 9;7 is in the 3rd person perspective and 22;9 is in the 1st person perspective and has a little bit more detail, in as much as instead of "they heard the sound" it was "they did not understand the voice" wich would still imply they heard it, in the chapter 22 telling of the salvation of saul it is written as from saul's perspective, while the chapter 9 telling is from (apperantly) luke's perspective as he wrote the book of acts and was not present for the above mentioned event on the road to damascus, so they are not as much different versions but the same version from two different perspectives and they correspond with each other aside from the ch.22 telling having a couple more details as it was being told by the one who experienced it, deabating wich telling of the conversion of saul is correct is moot, it's like two guys in the ghetto and one shot the other guy 1 says "he shot me" while guy 2 says "i shot him" wich is correct debating it is moot, #2 shot #1 while #1 was shot by #2, oh wait it's two ways of saying the same thing, if you don't understand that there's no amount of explanation and fact that could clear your head...

[sporty91]

my response means exactly what it says, i wasn't even metaphorical, you get the f, again i say read it again and go back to highschool english, sleeping with the teacher for A+ grades don't count here dude,


now for your question,


acts 9;7 the men traveling with saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.


acts 22;9 my companions saw the light, but they diid not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.


ok between these two specific verses the only difference i see is that 9;7 is in the 3rd person perspective and 22;9 is in the 1st person perspective and has a little bit more detail, in as much as instead of "they heard the sound" it was "they did not understand the voice" wich would still imply they heard it, in the chapter 22 telling of the salvation of saul it is written as from saul's perspective, while the chapter 9 telling is from (apperantly) luke's perspective as he wrote the book of acts and was not present for the above mentioned event on the road to damascus, so they are not as much different versions but the same version from two different perspectives and they correspond with each other aside from the ch.22 telling having a couple more details as it was being told by the one who experienced it, deabating wich telling of the conversion of saul is correct is moot, it's like two guys in the ghetto and one shot the other guy 1 says "he shot me" while guy 2 says "i shot him" wich is correct debating it is moot, #2 shot #1 while #1 was shot by #2, oh wait it's two ways of saying the same thing, if you don't understand that there's no amount of explanation and fact that could clear your head...





Very good! Read what I posted looks like he needs to study the word a little closer! nothing like the truth comming from two different people3 states apart. Yet it still agrees!!!!


HEBE You have shown why the bible says to study to show yourself approved, the reading of the bible w/o study is not going to yeld much. There are many things that we will never understand. That does not excuse us from trying to get it right!


Hope you had a Merry Christmas.Edited by: sporty91

[sporty91]

Lev 26:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev026.html#1) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, / neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.


You'll notice that this is a two part sentance..pt1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, this means DO NOT DO IT. the next part is an elaboration and or illustrative... no, all that crap (Now this seem to say that you should not worship the image ect .. ect..),you put into it is youropinion and thats pretty clear. And counting up some 10,000 yrs oftheological exploration on the part of learned men,the opinion of a self proclaimed lay-minister (for lay minister, read exploiter of the extremely naive and gullible ie;teenagers) dosen't realy amount to a tinkers damn.I'm not dodging or copping out or any other thing. I just didn't think I was going to have to put to fine a point on it.


cp


cp





So people making the what nots that is on your grandmas cabinets are making idols I don't think so the sentance is plain the making of or standing up of idols are wrong. I have a necklace hanging in my truck that looks like a old 4 sided nail with John 3;16 in one side to help me remember to keep my cool. I don't pray to it I know it has no power to do anything. It is a reminder thats all. Am I worshiping a idol to you BTW I don't work with teens I teach the adult sunday school class and help the pastor to vist the sick and needy. Get a english teacher to diagram that sentance for you they will tell you the same thing.





uploads/Jagdpanzer/2006-12-25_062946_jesus-4kids250.jpg


Your lay- minister school must have been somewhat strange if you think this is a whatnot on a coo coo clock or a cut nail.


cp





According to your view you said no image is to be made. Sounds like now you want to back up on that,as you should. As the problems come from worshiping the image not the image itself. However if you read the verse the making of a image knowing it will be worshiped is a problem also.

[hwrogers]

my response means exactly what it says, i wasn't even metaphorical, you get the f, again i say read it again and go back to highschool english, sleeping with the teacher for A+ grades don't count here dude,


now for your question,


acts 9;7 the men traveling with saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.


acts 22;9 my companions saw the light, but they diid not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.


ok between these two specific verses the only difference i see is that 9;7 is in the 3rd person perspective and 22;9 is in the 1st person perspective and has a little bit more detail, in as much as instead of "they heard the sound" it was "they did not understand the voice" wich would still imply they heard it, in the chapter 22 telling of the salvation of saul it is written as from saul's perspective, while the chapter 9 telling is from (apperantly) luke's perspective as he wrote the book of acts and was not present for the above mentioned event on the road to damascus, so they are not as much different versions but the same version from two different perspectives and they correspond with each other aside from the ch.22 telling having a couple more details as it was being told by the one who experienced it, deabating wich telling of the conversion of saul is correct is moot, it's like two guys in the ghetto and one shot the other guy 1 says "he shot me" while guy 2 says "i shot him" wich is correct debating it is moot, #2 shot #1 while #1 was shot by #2, oh wait it's two ways of saying the same thing, if you don't understand that there's no amount of explanation and fact that could clear your head...





Very good! Read what I posted looks like he needs to study the word a little closer! nothing like the truth comming from two different people3 states apart. Yet it still agrees!!!!


Hope you had a Merry Christmas.





hope yours was good too, got a new toolbox, and my favorite... COOKIES!!!

[S2LR]

This post is so lengthy, I will address each one of your points below interleaved with your comments...</font>


<div><div>Summary


Scripture says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct Persons. In addition we find that each of these Persons is specifically addressed as God. Scripture speaks of God the Father having existence. The Bible also says that Jesus the Son is God. Finally there is a third distinct Person, the Holy Spirit, who is also called God. Since all are addressed as God, and there is only one God, then the conclusion must be that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one God.



I'm glad to see that you're getting a grasp on what the Bible teaches...</font>

[QUOTE=sporty91]



This shows they are three but also one.


Here is a verse that Jesus said him and his Father are one. Heres something to chew on the Holy spirit lives in us the bible says so, now if he can live inside us why couldn't Jesus live within his father As we have a body for the holy spirit to live in the Father is a spirit also so Jesus is flesh and bone or a body so why couldn't they enter into one another as the Holy Spirit does us




<t><t><t><t>
<t>
</t></t></t></t></t><t></t><t></t><table style="font-size: 125%;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><t><tr>
<td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="68"><nobr>hn 10:30</font> (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=30&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#3 0)</nobr></td>
<td valign="top"></font>
</td>
<td valign="top">I and [my] Father are one</td></tr></t></table>


Here are so more verses to back up what I have said.



<t><t><t>
<t>
</t></t></t></t><t></t><t></t><table style="font-size: 125%;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><t><tr>
<td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="68"><nobr>Rom 8:9</font> (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=9&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#9)</nobr></td>
<td valign="top"></font>
</td>
<td valign="top">But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.</td></tr>
<tr>
<td align="left" valign="top" width="57"><nobr><a name="10"></a>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rom/8/10.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#10)htt p://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#10 )</nobr>
<nobr>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gif<a title="Versi&#111;ns / Translati&#111;ns" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #10" target="_blank" target="_blank"><img alt="Versi&#111;ns / Tra

[S2LR]

and to s2lr, you think that man's "laws" of physics aply to god you have shown yourself a fool, pure and simple, if god created the universe and all things then he is capable of whatever he wants to do regardless of your laws of physics.


This is quite hilarious. It's too bad you have to resort to juvenile name calling rather than an intelligent response. It's ok...I understand. I've been in hot kitchens before in where I had to leave...</font>smileys/smiley10.gif.

My hat's off to sporty91. At least he's keeping a good spirit in this debate. Since you seem to look up to him, perhaps you should follow his example...</font>

[S2LR]

now for your question,


acts 9;7 the men traveling with saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.


acts 22;9 my companions saw the light, but they diid not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.


Here's what my KJV Bible quotes on these verses:

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice</span> </span>but seeing no man" (emphasis mine)

Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the</span> light, and were afraid; but they heard</span> </span>not the voice</span></span></span> (http://&#115;criptures.lds.org/en/acts/22/9a) of him that spake to me" (emphasis mine)

Your version gives quite a different spin than what mine does. Perhaps this will lead to a debate on which version or translation of the Bible is the correct one...smileys/smiley4.gif.

I'll stick with the rendition given in the KJV.

Whether or not it is third person or first person is immaterial. Both accounts are talking about those that were with Paul. All that matters is what those that were with Paul told him or the individual who recorded Acts 9:7 was told by them. Either Paul made a wrong assumption regarding his companions not hearing the voice when they really did or they really didn't hear the voice as Paul states. The latter scenario would render Acts 9:7 as the incorrect account. One of them has to be the correct account. They either heard it or they didn't...plain and simple. Which ever one you pick, the other is wrong or incorrect. It really is binary.

</font>

[sporty91]

This post is so lengthy, I will address each one of your points below interleaved with your comments...

[QUOTE=sporty91]

Summary


Scripture says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct Persons. In addition we find that each of these Persons is specifically addressed as God. Scripture speaks of God the Father having existence. The Bible also says that Jesus the Son is God. Finally there is a third distinct Person, the Holy Spirit, who is also called God. Since all are addressed as God, and there is only one God, then the conclusion must be that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one God.





I'm glad to see that you're getting a grasp on what the Bible teaches...


[QUOTE=sporty91]


This shows they are three but also one.


Here is a verse that Jesus said him and his Father are one. Heres something to chew on the Holy spirit lives in us the bible says so, now if he can live inside us why couldn't Jesus live within his father As we have a body for the holy spirit to live in the Father is a spirit also so Jesus is flesh and bone or a body so why couldn't they enter into one another as the Holy Spirit does us





<T><T><T><T><T></T></T></T></T></T>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><T><T><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>hn 10:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=30&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#3 0)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top>I and [my] Father are one</TD></TR></T></T></T></T></T></TABLE>


Here are so more verses to back up what I have said.


<T><T><T><T></T></T></T></T>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><T><T><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Rom 8:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=9&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#9)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top>But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=10></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rom/8/10.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#10)htt p://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#10 )</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #10)<A title="Dicti&#111;nary Aids" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Rom&amp;ch

[sporty91]

This post is so lengthy, I will address each one of your points below interleaved with your comments...

[QUOTE=sporty91]

Summary


Scripture says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct Persons. In addition we find that each of these Persons is specifically addressed as God. Scripture speaks of God the Father having existence. The Bible also says that Jesus the Son is God. Finally there is a third distinct Person, the Holy Spirit, who is also called God. Since all are addressed as God, and there is only one God, then the conclusion must be that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one God.





I'm glad to see that you're getting a grasp on what the Bible teaches...


[QUOTE=sporty91]


This shows they are three but also one.


Here is a verse that Jesus said him and his Father are one. Heres something to chew on the Holy spirit lives in us the bible says so, now if he can live inside us why couldn't Jesus live within his father As we have a body for the holy spirit to live in the Father is a spirit also so Jesus is flesh and bone or a body so why couldn't they enter into one another as the Holy Spirit does us





<T><T><T><T><T></T></T></T></T></T>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><T><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>hn 10:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=10&amp;verse=30&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#3 0)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top>I and [my] Father are one</TD></TR></T></T></T></T></TABLE>


Here are so more verses to back up what I have said.


<T><T><T><T></T></T></T></T>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><T><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Rom 8:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=9&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#9)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top>But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=10></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rom/8/10.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#10)htt p://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#10 )</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=10&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #10)<A title="Dicti&#111;nary Aids" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Rom&amp;chapter=8&am

[sporty91]

now for your question,


acts 9;7 the men traveling with saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.


acts 22;9 my companions saw the light, but they diid not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.




Here's what my KJV Bible quotes on these verses:

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no man" (emphasis mine)

Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me" (emphasis mine)

Your version gives quite a different spin than what mine does. Perhaps this will lead to a debate on which version or translation of the Bible is the correct one...smileys/smiley4.gif.

I'll stick with the rendition given in the KJV.

Whether or not it is third person or first person is immaterial. Both accounts are talking about those that were with Paul. All that matters is what those that were with Paul told him or the individual who recorded Acts 9:7 was told by them. Either Paul made a wrong assumption regarding his companions not hearing the voice when they really did or they really didn't hear the voice as Paul states. The latter scenario would render Acts 9:7 as the incorrect account. One of them has to be the correct account. They either heard it or they didn't...plain and simple. Which ever one you pick, the other is wrong or incorrect. It really is binary.




Did you read my post I went back and read the word that were translated. The verses say the same thing. Look it up for yourself. Strongs will shed light on the words that were written originally. Have you ever heard of something being lost in the translation Read my post about this and you will see. Now would you want a DR. to use 1611 treatments on you when you go to the hospital I would not! I would find someone that uses the most up to date methods. The bible was not written in english in 1611. It was written in different tounges and over thousands of years. So not finding out for yourself is not a good idea. Study to show yourself approved not only read what the men from 1611 said. I have found many gems by studying the original text, It is very easy to do as the strongs concordance is very easy to get.and cheap by the way. plus the internet can get you to the same info for free.Edited by: sporty91

[S2LR]

Again you have assumed someting I did not say. The Fact is God the Father is a spirit so do you think he has a body By deffinition he would not. Does he have a image Yes Jesus took on flesh he was not flesh before he came to earth. Verses to follow to prove this. The fact is we can not look on God we would die if we did that is why he showed Moses his coat tails. Go back and read the verses you will see that Moses never saw God face to face. Again I have said I don't know how God does this just he can do it any way he wants. You still have not showed a verse that says he can't be one. Now the verses to prove God is a spirit and that Jesus did not have flesh before he came to earth.

What am I assuming that you did not say Be specific.

I'm also under the impression that you're not grasping the significance of what I am arguing.

Let me state it again. Who is more perfect in heaven right now The Father as a personage of spirit or Christ as a personage of flesh and bone If they're the same person or can become the same person, then logic would dictate that the Father must have a body also. If you concede that Christ can drop his body off to "merge" with the spiritual Father as "one" (the way you conceive it to be) then your saying that Christ can die twice! How crazy is that given that he's resurrected from the de@d! This alone supports the fact that they CAN'T be one person. They are separate and distinct personages...they have always been separate and distinct personages! You really need to follow this logic to it's conclusion.

Now if they are separate, or can become separate according to your morphing God theology, then you need to explain to me who is more perfect when they are separated. God without a body or Christ with a body as they currently exist in yonder heaven! You have made no effort to explain this.

Again, using Occam's razor..."the simplest explanation tends to be the RIGHT explanation". Your metamorphic God theology is NOT the simplest explanation.

I also see that you didn't own up to your changing theology regarding man being created in the image of God. First you say that we are literally in his image and now you're saying we're not How can you deny this I've even provided the quote by YOU in my previous post. Your flip-flopping alone brings your credibility in debating the issues into question...

As for Moses' account, you need to read Ex 33:11 more closely. How much more plain can it be stated Moses speaks with God face to face as a man speaks to his friend. Sounds pretty straightforward to me...</font>
Edited by: S2LR

[S2LR]

<t>
<t>
</t></t><t></t><table style="font-size: 125%;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><t><tr>
<td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="68"><nobr>Jhn 4:23</font> (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=4&amp;verse=23&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#23 )</nobr></td>
<td valign="top"></font>
</td>
<td valign="top">But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.</td></tr>
<tr>
<td align="left" valign="top" width="57"><nobr><a name="24"></a>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/4/24.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=4&amp;verse=24&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#24)htt p://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=4&amp;verse=24&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#24 )</nobr>
<nobr>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_hymns9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/images.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=4&amp;verse=24&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2 4)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=4&amp;verse=24&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #24)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=4&amp;verse=24&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#24)</nobr>
</td>
<td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="68"><nobr>Jhn 4:24</font> (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=4&amp;verse=24&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#24 )</nobr></td>
<td valign="top"></font>
</td>
<td valign="top">God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.</td></tr></t></table>




Yes, God is a spirit...so what Man is a spirit also...clothed with a body in this life. Each one of us has a spirit within our bodies which will continue to live after we die. You believe in life after de@th correct What will go on living after de@th It sure isn't the body...it's your spirit (at least initially...hehe).

On John 4:24, is also says that if we worship God, we must worship him in spirit</span> and in truth. Does that mean that I must drop my body off to attend my Church meetings It says I must worship him in SPIRIT...</font>smileys/smiley2.gif. Perhaps this begs the question on what it really means when it says "God is a spiri

[S2LR]

I'm heading to bed so I'm done for the night. It's been good...</font>smileys/smiley4.gif

Merry Christmas...</font>

[sporty91]

Again you have assumed someting I did not say. The Fact is God the Father is a spirit so do you think he has a body By deffinition he would not. Does he have a image Yes Jesus took on flesh he was not flesh before he came to earth. Verses to follow to prove this. The fact is we can not look on God we would die if we did that is why he showed Moses his coat tails. Go back and read the verses you will see that Moses never saw God face to face. Again I have said I don't know how God does this just he can do it any way he wants. You still have not showed a verse that says he can't be one. Now the verses to prove God is a spirit and that Jesus did not have flesh before he came to earth.




What am I assuming that you did not say Be specific.

I'm also under the impression that you're not grasping the significance of what I am arguing.

Let me state it again. Who is more perfect in heaven right now The Father as a personage of spirit or Christ as a personage of flesh and bone If they're the same person or can become the same person, then logic would dictate that the Father must have a body also. If you concede that Christ can drop his body off to "merge" with the spiritual Father as "one" (the way you conceive it to be) then your saying that Christ can die twice! How crazy is that given that he's resurrected from the ! This alone supports the fact that they CAN'T be one person. They are separate and distinct personages...they have always been separate and distinct personages! You really need to follow this logic to it's conclusion.

Now if they are separate, or can become separate according to your morphing God theology, then you need to explain to me who is more perfect when they are separated. God without a body or Christ with a body as they currently exist in yonder heaven! You have made no effort to explain this.

Again, using Occam's razor..."the simplest explanation tends to be the RIGHT explanation". Your metamorphic God theology is NOT the simplest explanation.

I also see that you didn't own up to your changing theology regarding man being created in the image of God. First you say that we are literally in his image and now you're saying we're not How can you deny this I've even provided the quote by YOU in my previous post. Your flip-flopping alone brings your credibility in debating the issues into question...

As for Moses' account, you need to read Ex 33:11 more closely. How much more plain can it be stated Moses speaks with God face to face as a man speaks to his friend. Sounds pretty straightforward to me...



You are assuming that I have said that God does this one way only. You are also assuming Jesus would have to leave his body to become one with God Do you have to leave your body for the holy spirit to become one with you The verse above proves that Jesus becomes one with us through the Holy Spirit. Again Moses never seen Gods Face I will post a verse to prove you wrong.






<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=20></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Exd/33/20.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#20)<A title="List Available Commentaries" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2 0" target="_blank"><IMG height=17 alt="List Available Commentaries" h

[S2LR]

You are assuming that I have said that God does this one way only. You are also assuming Jesus would have to leave his body to become one with God Do you have to leave your body for the holy spirit to become one with you The verse above proves that Jesus becomes one with us through the Holy Spirit. Again Moses never seen Gods Face I will post a verse to prove you wrong.

Ok...one more reply before calling it quits.

You still can't address my questions can you.

We are one with God in purpose NOT SUBSTANCE. God is in heaven we are on earth right Again, don't confuse divine influence with the personage...

I'm still waiting for you to explain your flip-flopping on the "image of God" issue. I'm not going to let you off the hook until you explain yourself! Your credibility is at stake here!</font>

Edited by: S2LR

[sporty91]

You are assuming that I have said that God does this one way only. You are also assuming Jesus would have to leave his body to become one with God Do you have to leave your body for the holy spirit to become one with you The verse above proves that Jesus becomes one with us through the Holy Spirit. Again Moses never seen Gods Face I will post a verse to prove you wrong.




Ok...one more reply before calling it quits.

You still can't address my questions can you.

We are one with God in purpose NOT SUBSTANCE. God is in heaven we are on earth right

I'm still waiting for you to explain your flip-flopping on the "image of God" issue. I'm not going to let you off the hook until you explain yourself! Your credibility is at stake here!




Again God the Father is a spirit,not a body I have already showed the bible says this. Now can his spirit have arms and legs ect....YES AND DOES!!! No flip flopping I never said that I know he is only one or comes together as one at times. ONLY THAT HE CAN!!!!! Can you understand that Now you on the other hand have said you know that he is three and does not come together as one being yet you have not shown one shread of evidence! Now put up or sit down show your proof or be quite!


And sir God the Holy Spirit is most assuredly on earth as he lives in me and I am on earth!Edited by: sporty91

[S2LR]

<t>
</t><table style="font-size: 125%;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<t><tr>
<td align="left" valign="top" width="57"><nobr><a name="20"></a>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Exd/33/20.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#20)ht tp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2 0)</nobr>
<nobr>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJ V#20)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#20)</nobr>
</td>
<td align="left" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="68"><nobr>Exd 33:20</font> (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#2 0)</nobr></td>
<td valign="top"></font>
</td>
<td valign="top">And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.</td></tr></t></table>





How much plainer can it be and in the same chapter you quoted, and the same translation. Thats got to hurt. Moses spoke to God as a friend go back and find the words used in the original text you will see what it means. Again you are counting on men from the 17th cen, to correctly translate the word of God I want to know what the men inspired by God wrote, don't you Then you will need to do some more digging!

Who are your "supposed" men inspired by God What makes them more inspired than the translators of the KJV of the Bible

Your reference is of no surprise. I was waiting for you to pull that one. That's got to hurt Not at all. On the surface it would appear that we have a contradiction. But not so.

John 1:18 also states that no man has seen God either but I have a translation of this verse which states that "no man hath seen God at anytime, except he be quickened by the spirit of God</span>" (emphasis mine). Moses was quickened by his spirit so he could endure is presence. Dilemma solved...

On this topic, I also see that you have conveniently swept all the other scriptures in the Bible under the rug that give accounts of God being spoken to face to face. I give a few in my earlier post. Perhaps you need to do some more digging...</font>smileys/smiley2.gif

[S2LR]

Again God the Father is a spirit,not a body I have already showed the bible says this. Now can his spirit have arms and legs ect....YES AND DOES!!! No flip flopping I never said that I know he is only one or comes together as one at times. ONLY THAT HE CAN!!!!! Can you understand that Now you on the other hand have said you know that he is three and does not come together as one being yet you have not shown one shread of evidence! Now put up or sit down show your proof or be quite!


And sir God the Holy Spirit is most assuredly on earth as he lives in me and I am on earth!

I have put up and I am sitting down. I have shown my proof through logical argument and debate. In my opinion, YOU have failed in providing any evidence that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are ONE PERSON. Your only proof is hyperbole and misinterpretation on the scriptures...and oh yeah...playing your trump card that God is incomprehensible. I have given logical argument that they can't be one person no more than I'm the same person as my Father.

Now back to the "image of God". Either God has form or he doesn't. You can't have it both ways. You are a flip flopper when you express one point of doctrine and then turn completely against it. There's no denying it. On that point, your credibility is null and void.

This debate is basically over since you have the luxury of morphing your doctrine to suit your situation...just like your morphing God belief. I, on the other hand, have remained consistent in my stance and belief.

Let's let those who are reading this thread decide what is truth and what is error...</font>

[S2LR]

One more note of parting.

It's clear that neither you or I will budge each other on what we believe as we've studied the Bible. You believe what you will and I'll do the same. If anything, this debate has solidified what I've come to know as the truth (John 8:32)

Good luck in your quest...</font>

[sporty91]

<T></T>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><T><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=20></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Exd/33/20.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#20)ht tp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2 0)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJ V#20)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#20)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Exd 33:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#2 0)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top>And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.</TD></TR></T></T></T></T></TABLE>





How much plainer can it be and in the same chapter you quoted, and the same translation. Thats got to hurt. Moses spoke to God as a friend go back and find the words used in the original text you will see what it means. Again you are counting on men from the 17th cen, to correctly translate the word of God I want to know what the men inspired by God wrote, don't you Then you will need to do some more digging!




Who are your "supposed" men inspired by God What makes them more inspired than the translators of the KJV of the Bible

Your reference is of no surprise. I was waiting for you to pull that one. That's got to hurt Not at all. On the surface it would appear that we have a contradiction. But not so.

John 1:18 also states that no man has seen God either but I have a translation of this verse which states that "no man hath seen God at anytime, except he be quickened by the spirit of God" (emphasis mine). Moses was quickened by his spirit so he could endure is presence. Dilemma solved...

On this topic, I also see that you have conveniently swept all the other scriptures in the Bible under the rug that give accounts of God being spoken to face to face. I give a few in my earlier post. Perhaps you need to do some more digging...smileys/smiley2.gif





\






Then why did God himself say no man can see me and live In the samechapter when Moses wanted to see him also if Moses had seen him already why would he ask to see him I am glad you are g

[sporty91]

Here is the whole conversation between God and Moses.



<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Exd 33:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=11&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#1 1)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top></TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=12></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Exd/33/12.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=12&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#12)ht tp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=12&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#1 2)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/images.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=12&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV# 12)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=12&amp;versi&#111;n=KJ V#12)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=12&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#12)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Exd 33:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=12&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#1 2)</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top>¶</TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=13></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Exd/33/13.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=13&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#13)<A title="List Available Commentaries" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&a

[sporty91]

One more note of parting.

It's clear that neither you or I will budge each other on what we believe as we've studied the Bible. You believe what you will and I'll do the same. If anything, this debate has solidified what I've come to know as the truth (John 8:32)

Good luck in your quest...







<TABLE =table_bible style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=31></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/8/31.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=31&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#31)htt p://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=31&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#31 )</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=31&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV #31)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=31&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#31)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD =td_bible_verse_ing vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Jhn 8:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=31&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#31 )</NOBR></TD>
<TD =parSym vAlign=top>¶</TD>
<TD =td_bible_text vAlign=top>Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =td_bible_6_s vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=32></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/8/32.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=32&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#32)htt p://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=32&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#32 )</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_hymns9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/images.plbook=Jhn&amp;chapter=8&amp;verse=32&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#3 2)<A title="Versi&#111;ns / Translati&#111;n

[sporty91]

[QUOTE=sporty91]





<T></T>
<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 125%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=57><NOBR><A name=20></A>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Exd/33/20.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#20)ht tp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#2 0)</NOBR>
<NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versi&#111;ns.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJ V#20)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=KJV#20)</NOBR>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width=68><NOBR>Exd 33:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.plbook=Exd&amp;chapter=33&amp;verse=20&amp;versi&#111;n=kjv#2 0)</NOBR></TD>
<TD vAlign=top>
</TD>
<TD vAlign=top>And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>





How much plainer can it be and in the same chapter you quoted, and the same translation. Thats got to hurt. Moses spoke to God as a friend go back and find the words used in the original text you will see what it means. Again you are counting on men from the 17th cen, to correctly translate the word of God I want to know what the men inspired by God wrote, don't you Then you will need to do some more digging!




Who are your "supposed" men inspired by God What makes them more inspired than the translators of the KJV of the Bible

Your reference is of no surprise. I was waiting for you to pull that one. That's got to hurt Not at all. On the surface it would appear that we have a contradiction. But not so.

John 1:18 also states that no man has seen God either but I have a translation of this verse which states that "no man hath seen God at anytime, except he be quickened by the spirit of God" (emphasis mine). Moses was quickened by his spirit so he could endure is presence. Dilemma solved...

On this topic, I also see that you have conveniently swept all the other scriptures in the Bible under the rug that give accounts of God being spoken to face to face. I give a few in my earlier post. Perhaps you need to do some more digging...smileys/smiley2.gif






<TABLE =versi&#111;nTBL cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =versi&#111;n colSpan=2>Available Translations and Versions for Jhn 1:18</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =versi&#111;nName><A &#111;nmouseover="showtipthis,&#101;vent,'Read / Print the Bible in

[Hebephrenia]

It's amazing that men get to pick and choose which interpretation of the bible is the correct one. How unfortunate, since it is obvious that each one is dramatically different from the other as demonstrated in this thread. It supports my belief that the bible is fallible and incomplete in it's current version(s), hence all the confusion here and the myriad of churches that exist. In conclusion, there have been many unanswered questions in this forum, the mostobvious being which of all the churches, denominations etc, is the correct one. Perhaps it depends on what version of the Bible they are using. At least if I ever become a believer, it won't be based on the bible alone since I wouldn't know whether the version I was using was the right one. I am also comfortable knowing that if the heat gets put on, I've got the examples of Sporty and HW to follow regarding using my opinion and getting to interprete things by myself or following a blind pastor. Good luck in your wanderings, gentlemen, and remember, Life is a mystery----incomprehensible!

[Jagdpanzer]

I belive these to be false, they were written by people that were against the truth. Look where they were found. You can belive what you want but I doubt the pope you think so much of would think they are part of the bible.


[/QUOTE]


Well after your lengthy studyof the dead sea scrolls you have concluded that they add nothing to the understanding of the relationship between god and man, and or the formation of standardized religious practice.well that sure is comforting to know that you got that controversy squared away. I really feel for your counselees twice the child of hell as the saying goes. as far MY consulting the pope..I said Iwas a catholic..born that way, as it were it's kinda like being jewish..I don't really give himmuch more credence than you, some, but not much


Look where they were foundwhere did youexpect them to be found in OralRoberts back yardyour like the crystal ball reader who can only claim foreknowledge of things you've been told in advance..


Casts a really big doubt of your claim to be in touch with the eternal. I really think you can only recite back what you read in the bible and you can only do that with the aid of a computer..Holy Spirit indeed. your just a mock apostle like all evangilist...they play St Paul dress up. and this thread just an overblown basement bible study, it is sound and fury signifying nothing. I'm out, have fun y'all


cpEdited by: Jagdpanzer

[hwrogers]

ok, hebe, the many different versions of the bible and there existance shows the fallability of the men doing the translating, especially the guys with a king's sword at their necks... ;)


but yes your point is vallid in as much as the fallability of the translations, i'd personally like to see the gutenburg version (spelling) as it was not commissioned by a king, but monks wanting to put the bible into one laguage (latin) wich is among the original languages used in the writing of the bible, and translates much more easily to-from aramaic and the several other languages used, especially considering how much more complex the english we speak today is and how many ways each word of latin/aramaic/hebrew translates into several different words in modern english...


but i think that people today simply need to come to the right conclusion, and following actions, wich most of the versions are to the same jist, i at least haven't seen any that are so wildly different that i wouldn't trust them to be of the same origin, i will say i prefer the new international version, but choose as you will, as long as you get the point

[hwrogers]

and to s2lr, you think that man's "laws" of physics aply to god you have shown yourself a fool, pure and simple, if god created the universe and all things then he is capable of whatever he wants to do regardless of your laws of physics.




This is quite hilarious. It's too bad you have to resort to juvenile name calling rather than an intelligent response. It's ok...I understand. I've been in hot kitchens before in where I had to leave...smileys/smiley10.gif.

My hat's off to sporty91. At least he's keeping a good spirit in this debate. Since you seem to look up to him, perhaps you should follow his example...



juvenile name calling i said fool, not doody-head, anyone who apply's man-made laws of physics to god all-mighty is in fact a fool, this is not debatable, He created the universe and designed everything in it, even those physics to wich man wants to put rules and laws and think their right, and He was kind enough to give man free will to even be able to choose not to believe inHim, and to choose these "laws" of physics created by men over God himself, God loves you, try to show a little respect

[sporty91]

It's amazing that men get to pick and choose which interpretation of the bible is the correct one. How unfortunate, since it is obvious that each one is dramatically different from the other as demonstrated in this thread. It supports my belief that the bible is fallible and incomplete in it's current version(s), hence all the confusion here and the myriad of churches that exist. In conclusion, there have been many unanswered questions in this forum, the mostobvious being which of all the churches, denominations etc, is the correct one. Perhaps it depends on what version of the Bible they are using. At least if I ever become a believer, it won't be based on the bible alone since I wouldn't know whether the version I was using was the right one. I am also comfortable knowing that if the heat gets put on, I've got the examples of Sporty and HW to follow regarding using my opinion and getting to interprete things by myself or following a blind pastor. Good luck in your wanderings, gentlemen, and remember, Life is a mystery----incomprehensible!


I have been saying to go to the original text the whole time! The 1611 KJV was translated from the latin translation so it is a translation of a translation. Every time someone has shown what they thought was a contrdiction I have shown the original text to be true. It showed there was no contrdiciton. Tellme hebe seeing how you are soenlightened are there any subjects that man has mastered that he cannot learn any more Because he knows it all, I would say that answer would be no. So then how do you think we should know every thing about God Case in point the drugslike viox that are on trail now, first seemed to help man even the FDA approved them. How ever it looks like they may hay not known all they thought. So it is safe to say we are always learning. You keep asking for a answer that only you can find. I am resopnabile for my relationship with God,he showed me the way back and I belived him. I can not belivefor you, you have to do that yourself. I have not told anyone to follow a blind pastor, I have saideveryone has to find the truth forthemselves. There are misterys in every thing that does not mean you can't understand the needed information. Look at your watch, can you tell the time Now tellme every detail of how the watchkeeps the correct time. Even if you know how it works and can tell someone how others can explain it in a different way that somepeople can understand better. Again it does not matter the path to the cross just that you get there. You are right there are alot of churches out there, some good some bad. Some have split apart because of things like the carpet color! These things are becauseof man not God. The bible says to search and you will find knock and it will be opened. However I or any one eles can not bring it to you on a silver platter.YOU have to look and find it for yourself. The bible in it original text is where you will find it. It's kinda like a treasure map before you can findthe treasure you must belive it there and bewilling to look for it. You have read the bible but sounds like you read it like a novel. It takes some digging to understsand the word of God. So have youfigured out life, you say we wander so ifyou knowwhat we are missingplease let us know!Please anwser this. have a blessed day.Edited by: sporty91

[sporty91]

s2lr wrote,


Now if they are separate, or can become separate according to your morphing God theology, then you need to explain to me who is more perfect when they are separated. God without a body or Christ with a body as they currently exist in yonder heaven! You have made no effort to explain this.









They are all perfect. How can you be more perfect You are either perfect or not. However Jesus coverschainof commandas he says he does nothing on his own but his Fathers will. The Holy Spirit also follows the will of the Father. Again I have not said they do come together as one, just that God is God and could do this if he wanted to. Again point out a verse in the word that shows that he said he would not do this and I will be glad to admit that I was wrong. Edited by: sporty91

[hwrogers]

ok, now back to the original debate, evil and where it came from... a friend at church brought up an interesting point, god did not create evil, but the possibility for it to exist when he created free will, any other views

[sporty91]

ok, now back to the original debate, evil and where it came from... a friend at church brought up an interesting point, god did not create evil, but the possibility for it to exist when he created free will, any other views








That is a very good line of thought, I am afraid this thread has kinda done what it is going to do. I had a good time debating the views here. I have a feeling that it made more people than me think. It made me study my bible closer and it confrimed to me it is the word of God. Hope every one has the best year ever. Again if any one has questions or comments please ask or make them.Edited by: sporty91

[Lsecanon0600]

Eve is the abbeveration of Evil

[sporty91]

Eve is the abbeveration of Evil


Strongs Hebrew #2331 ;Life giver;Chavvah {or Eve} the first woman:- Eve.


Pornounced khav-vaw'; The name and the act of evil has nothing to do with one another. The original text was in hebrew in this passage so the original word does not even sound like the english word. Thanks for the input though.


Hope this helped, Have a blessed day.

[sporty91]

In this thread there was a very good debate on being baptized with water and did you have to be baptized to go to heaven. I found this in my studies and thought it would shine some light on the subject.



<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" bgColor=#000000>
<T>
<TR>
<TD =words-main-center-nobottom bgColor=#e9f1fa colSpan=2><NOBR>http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs142.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs141.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs160.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs164.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs151.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs172.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs167.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif</NOBR></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =words-sub bgColor=#749fcc colSpan=2>Pronunciation Guide</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =words-main-center bgColor=#e9f1fa colSpan=2>baptizo {bap-tid'-zo}
</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =words-sub style="WIDTH: 40%" bgColor=#749fcc>TDNT Reference</TD>
<TD =words-sub style="WIDTH: 60%" bgColor=#749fcc>Root Word</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =words-main-center bgColor=#e9f1fa>TDNT (http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/tdnt.html) - 1:529,92</TD>
<TD =words-main-left bgColor=#d6e5f7 rowSpan=3>from a derivative of 911 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.plbook=Mat&amp;chapter=20&amp;verse=22&amp;str&#111;ngs=911&amp;p age=1)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =words-sub bgColor=#749fcc>Part of Speech</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =words-main-center bgColor=#e9f1fa>verb</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =words-sub bgColor=#749fcc colSpan=2>Outline of Biblical Usage</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD =words-main-left bgColor=#e9f1fa colSpan=2>
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
++++
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.
</TD></TR></T></TABLE>


This show again how important it is to find the meanings of the text it was written in. The water shows a person is confessing Jesus. However the baptism Jesus told us we had to have to be saved is the relationship with him that changes us. IE the pickles is a very good example.


Hope this helps have a blessed day.

[hwrogers]

that is a very intersting point... however the submerssion of the body in water i do not think is what the christian baptism is about in the least if it is a true baptism, it is the immerssion of the spirit in god's holy presence and will, confession of former sins is part of the ceremony and required, as well as confession of christ as lord and god allmighty, this is true, but the amount of water used is rather a moot point, it is the spirit wich must be immersed... i'm getting tired, will try to post more tomorrow, been bussy lately and may not find time for a day or two so be patient please...

[sporty91]

We are on the same page the water has nothing to do with being saved. Being baptized with the Holy Spirit does. The water can NOT save or change anyone but when we are saved the Holy Spirit can change us if we let him. Good to hear from you again, hope you and yours are doing well.


Have a blessed day.


MikeEdited by: sporty91