We are running a MSD MC-4 on a Suzuki GSX-R 1300. Teh bax was bought with the auto shift feature not working. The box has worked great and has all the features we want to use. We recently got a Dyna Shift minder to try and set up the bike with an auto-shift feature. According to the MC-4 paperwork there are 2 ways to connect 'shift features' to the MSD box, the yellow wire that controls the air shifter and the brown wire (I think) that would read a MSD shift light. We wired the dyna shift minder in per the instructions using the yellow wire on the MSD box and have a switch in place so we can set the shift type between the button or auto (when the auto feature is on you cannot use the button and vis versa). The kill time was set to 90 MS (just to be on the safe side) and we are ready to test. We went to the track yesterday and went about testing the auto shift feature, and this is when the strange stuff started. With the auto shift off and shifting by button the bike would shift great and run with no issues. When we turned on the auto the bike would take what seemed likeforever to shift. The bike would actualy start to nose over during shifting. We then cut the kill time to 50 MS and tried again. The bike shifted better but still seemed .. 'off'. When shifting on the button, the bike seemed to run as italways had.
The questions are: 1) Could there be some sort of compatability issues woth the Dyna shift minder and the MC-4? 2) Is thereanother way to wire these two together that might work better? 3) What determines the length of kill time, does it matter how long you hold the button, or should it be the same no matter how long you hold it in?
Thanks for any help,
Just a little free advice. I would not test the auto, or any electronics or wiring at the track the first time. There really is no reason to try the auto with the motor even running or with air in the system. Why risk damage? [img]smileys/smiley2.gif[/img]
For what it's worth, I have played with autos a little bit and IMO, there is a lot that can trip them up on a bike. That said the DSM may not do what you want to use. Yea, I'm sure it's cheap but I bet you can buy a lot of them for the price and time to rebuild a tranny.
Just a couple of examples you may want to consider before you get too far into it. I think the DSM turns on it's output when the RPM is above the setting. There is no pulse. So, it is possible to get into a condition where the button may not override the DSM. If the bike hits a bump, the RPM could flash up and trip the auto and make it false shift. If the tire spins after the shift (seems common) then the RPM could easily flash back up and the bike may double shift. Not always the easiest on parts. You may want to add a dyna counter to the mix. Otherwise, you may find the bike double bumping in the traps depending on the setup.
If you always run at the same track, and the track is smooth and prep'ed you may get away with what your trying to do. You really need to answer this. I would give it a try, just consider what I wrote.
Buying used electronics is a crap shoot but it sounds like you have done alright with this one. [img]smileys/smiley20.gif[/img]
Maybe you could help me out a little. Any way you can post a wiring diagram? Also post what kind of transmission your using.
1) Could there be some sort of compatability issues woth the Dyna shift
minder and the MC-4?
Sure could! It's not like all these places used some common standards to design to. To be honest, I have never tried what your doing. I have only ever touched the DSM once to help a friend out. My guess is that the two would work together.
2) Is thereanother way to wire these two together
that might work better?
I am guessing from your post the jist of what you did was:
One side of your manual button went to power. The other side of the button went to the solenoid and the kill input of the MC-4. The other side of the solenoid went to ground. Then you stuck a diode across the solenoid with the cathode towards the button side.
You wired the tach output from the MC4 to the tach in on the minder. Then you took the output from the DSM to a toggle switch to the button side of the solenoid.
Dyna's manuals are not very detailed. So the first question I need to ask is if you know if the DSM turns on the brown positiive wire when it shifts? Or, does it ground the white wire? If it turns on the brown wire (which the manual makes it sound like this is not the case) your good to go. If the white wire is grounding, then you need to add something to invert the signal, like a relay.
In your post you state it did shift, so if I am right about the DSM's brown wire not being switched, you must have already added a relay.
3) What determines the length of kill time,
does it matter how long you hold the button, or should it be the same
no matter how long you hold it in?
In your post you said you set the kill time. So I assume (maybe wrong) that you did this by programming the MC4. So, you understand that the MC4 controls the kill time. It has nothing to do with how long you hold the button. However, how long you hold the button will change how long the solenoid is active.
what if the window switch is used to shift it?
I don't see what it is solving for you. I assume your talking about the MSD one?
For starts, it does switch to ground. So the logic will need to be inverted to work with the MC4 like the original poster was asking about.
Again, not saying it can't be done cheap. Have a look at the MPS autos. Very simple product, based on an MSD RPM switch and a solid state timer. I see these used a lot and at least at our track people have good luck with them. I don't think they charge too much for one. To work with the MC4 the basic one would work just fine.
Schnitz also used to sell a small auto. Very nice product. When I spoke with them about it, I guess they stopped making it because of the amount of problems people had with the autos. It was all solid-state, no chips to plug in, very small (maybe 1.5" X 1.5" X 0.75"), light weight and worked pretty much the same way as the MPS and Dedenbear.
I would guess both MPS and Schnitz saw very few actual problems with their products. Guessing most calls were from people thinking that they could make it work with their worn out transmissions or on a bad track. I would also guess that most people could button shift when the auto did not work and could not understand why (not saying that the original poster's transmission is bad or they are running on a bad track). I say this because I seem to see it over and over.
The Dedenbear (command centers) is a little different as I doubt they sold many for bikes.
Because they have a computer in the box, they can be a little smarter about how they shift. They have changed this part of their software a few times. The last version I saw added a feature to allow shifting by time rather than RPM.
I wrote my own software for the Dedenbear mostly for the autoshift. This has been a few years ago. I can do the kill, shift counter, handle 2-3, full or manual kill. I have crazy ideas I put into it on how to handle tire spin, bumps in the track, etc. The downside, the Command Center is a delay box and it's price is more than double an MPS.
I am not sure why no one has came up with a stand alone low cost microprocessor based auto shift. I think if someone made one easy for people to understand and setup, and it actually solved some of the problems the simple autos have and it didn't cost $500, they could sell it.
Edited by: geek
The Shift Minder brown wire is a switched +12 volt 2 amp output. The white wire is a constant ground. The wires are clearly marked in the instructions- http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/downloads/instruct/DSM-2,DSM-2H,DSM4,DSM-4H.pdf
Based on your description it sounds like you connected the Minder tach input wire to the MSD switched output (yellow) wire. I think you need to have the Minder green wire connected to the MSD brown wire assuming of course that this is the tach output from the MC4.
Of course bumpy tracks are the bane of any autoshift system but if your track isnt too bad the Minder should work well for what you are trying to accomplish.
I must really have ADD or something. I don't see that key note anywhere! Thanks for the post! Clears it up!! [img]smileys/smiley20.gif[/img]
Originally Posted by PM720
Is the output on anytime the RPM is above the set point?
Is there any hysteresis built in, if so any idea how much?
Scroll down to the autoshift instructions which is where +/- applies. +12V is on anytime you are above the set RPM point so yes, if you hit a bump and the RPM spikes it will try to shift again.
First let me thank everyone for the responses. i am not the rider/owner of the bike, but I help with alot of the work done on it. The information given will give us a place to start looking for issues. I think I gave too much unimportant information and left out some important stuff .
First, everything was bench tested and proven to work before running the bike down the track.I didn't mention it because the issues didn't come up until we accually ran down the track.I think the real issue we are having is, what 'really' controls the kill time? We are setting the kill time with the MC4, but does it have total control?
exampleusing manual shift: the kill time is set to 90MS, you push the button, and it is held in for 45MS (basically sending a pulse to the MC4), how long is the engine killed for 90MS or 45MS?
If the kill time goes for 90MS, what happens if the button is held in for 135MS? If the length of time the button is held in truly matters then the length of time the DSM sends its signal has to be calculated into the kill time.
Lastly, the track was not in the best shape this past Sat. It apparently was scraped recently and NO ONE was getting a good bite. We were having a lot of tire spin, which could account for some of the problems.
i was just throwing it out there
Yea, I saw the polarity. Just nothing that states that the + is switched. No notes on any hysteresis. Still wonder if it has any built in? Let me ask another way. So, say I set it to turn on at 10,000 RPM. Once I hit 10,000 I assume the output turns on. Now, if it goes to 9999 does it turn off? Or does it need to drop below say 9500 to turn back off? Maybe it has a filter where it has to be below 10,000 for some time before it turns off. Only you can answer this.
Originally Posted by PM720
Every auto I looked at had some hysteresis for the shift. So, even though the output was pulsed, the RPM had to fall below the setpoint minus the hysteresis before it would arm to do the next shift.